Serious question about PADI

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I only have about 30 dives under my weightbelt, but do have something to say...

I researched the local dive shops when I got OW certified, and still ended up with a bad instructor, giving advice that could get someone bent. I talked to his boss, and he got fired. Then in my high altitude course, got another bad instructor, who required bourdon tube-type depth guages, and didn't understand how to use one. Since I've found it difficult to know if an instructor know's his stuff until your in his class, my advice is to do your best to find a good shop and a good instructor, by all means, but don't trust any instructor. Study for yourself, and think through everything your taught. If I hadn't done my own reading and had a basic understanding of the physiology of diving, I would have happily accepted advice that was dangerous. And keep studying and asking questions as long as you're diving. It's your life in the balance.
 
When we were looking to get certified, we chose PADI because they are the biggest certifying agency and we knew we would be able to dive anywhere with it. However, when we picked our instructor, we went with someone who is certified to teach both NAUI and PADI, and had exceptional experience and knowledge of diving. We did our certification in 3 days and had serious concerns about whether we could possibly learn everything, but after comparing our 3 day instruction with a friend's 3 week instruction, I know ours was superior.

Why? The biggest reason is that our instructor spent more time working on skills than my friend's. She had 6 pool sessions, which involved 8 students submerging one at a time with the instructor to do the skills while the assistant stayed topside with the other students. Then when it came to her 4 open dives, they only went through the skills one additional time and spent the rest of the time diving. When my friend had bouyancy issues in her open water dives, her instructors didn't work on her with it, but instead recommended she sign up for AOW immediately.

In our training, we spent well over an hour underwater practicing skills in our confined sessions. Our class of 6 students (plus 1 instructor and 1 assistant) submerged together, did our skills one at a time or together, and spent the entire confined time under water. We had to naturally work on some bouyancy things, as well as learn to breath calmly underwater while watching our classmates perform skills. On each of our 50 minute open water dives, we spent 1/2 our airtime doing each skill again, adding new ones each dive, and got to explore/dive for the rest of our airtime. Our instructor spent a lot of time with us on bouyancy and safety issues, which ultimately I feel will make us better divers in the long run.

I believe that unless you have an outstanding instructor like we did, the 3-day dive certification class can be extremely dangerous for new divers. I did extensive research to find our instructor and feel confident that our OW training was top notch. We plan to return to the same instructor for our AOW next year after getting a few dives under our belts.
 
I will qualify this with a disclaimer that I am not DIR (I must be Doing it Wrong! :11: :D )

DIR is a technical diving philosophy and equipment configuration now being espoused as a good general diving technique. It is more rigorous and thorough, resulting in a more competent diver upon completion of the courses as required by the agency.

If you have interest in technical diving, look into DIR before you buy a lot of stuff, since DIR divers are expected have a particular set up.

DIR philoshophies, such as only dive with another DIR diver in a DIR rig, are critical in exploration dives, recommended in technical dives, and helpful in recreational dives. Knowing exactly where an octo is on your buddy's gear helps you find it by feel if you end OOA in zero vis, but you need to rethink your plan if you are in zero vis in a typical recreational diving situation. This also applies to finding his/her knife for disentanglements, and situations for knowing the location of every piece of equipment can easily be cited.
 
MikeFerrara:
The reason so many notice that whether or not you get a good class is dependant on the instructor is because the agency minimums and day to day practices do little to insure that the class will be good.

"They all meet the RSTC minimums"...Big deal! Look who wrote them.

Come now Mike. The problem is in the definition of "mastery" and with quality control not with the content itself. Why do you think everyone says the instructor makes the difference? Frankly, it's possible to give an excellent PADI class and to produce excellent students by anyone's standard. The fact that it doesn't happen very much has to do with economics and not with standards.

DougK: as for SSI. It's essentially PADI with a different flavour topping (different order of presentation of the same information).

As for all the PADI bashing. That's the rub between the "tra-la-la" approach taken to scuba training (essentially a PADI vision adopted by many other agencies) and the reality that the vast majority of scuba related accidents (some of which are very serious or even fatal) are avoidable with higher quality training.

Some people would even say that recreational training in general is part of a focus to build, grow and maintain a sport based industry. The quality of instruction isn't a goal in itself. Instructional standards are liability nets and a means to keep governments from taking control. The real goal of scuba training, they would say, is create raw material (lots of inexperienced divers) to fuel the industry.

R..
 
Diver0001:
Come now Mike. The problem is in the definition of "mastery" and with quality control not with the content itself. Why do you think everyone says the instructor makes the difference? Frankly, it's possible to give an excellent PADI class and to produce excellent students by anyone's standard. The fact that it doesn't happen very much has to do with economics and not with standards.

R..

I disagree. I dropped my PADI membership because I believe the content of their standards is severely lacking.

I have posted many specific examples in the past and I'd be happy to repeat a few here if some one is interested. A quick example would be that a student could literally crawl on the bottom through the whole tour portion of an OW training dive and meet standards because there is NO requirement at all that the student display any level of competance in basic technique. There are agencies that DO require such a skills evaluation.

I could of course give many other examples.

The definition of "mastery" and QA are issues but seperate issues. The definition of mastery and the QA to make certain that instructors require it aren't relevant if the skill isn't required at all.

A class can be taught that meets standards in every way yet be a lousy class. That's because the standards are lousy.

I evaluating an agencies standards the only thing that matters to me is the minimums because that's all that an instructor is obligated to provide.
 
DougK:
Are you down on PADI becuse they are the "fast food" of diving or what?

OK, so you've heard the "It's the instructor, not the agency" cant - that's partially true. All major agencies have their good and bad instructors.
You've seen the RSTC party line that all agencies are the same - that's patently false. At a given price point, you can find courses from any agency, so clearly, competition is based on other differences.

PADI started out as a non-profit organization, like all the other agencies. About 20 years ago, the board formed a corporation and bought the agency, and now, PADI is a for profit corporation like GM or Microsoft. All the other agencies are non-profits like the Red Cross, which offers CPR and aquatics training for a fee.

When PADI became for profit, they applied all the market research tools other companies use, and they found that the only way for the percentage of the population that dives to increase significantly is to make it quicker and easier to get into diving. They found that consumers want immediate gratification with little or no effort.
In other words, if you could get a certification card from a vending machine, almost everyone would dive, and if you had to go through Navy SEAL training to dive, very few people would do so.

In response to this information, they shortened the course, removed content, and also removed information that might intimidate potential divers. People will rant and argue about this, but it is objective fact that you can now get OW certified in one weekend, when it once took months, that clearly identifiable skills like buddy breathing were once required and now are not, and that several dangerous types of barotrauma are euphemistically lumped into the less threatening sounding phrase "lung overexpansion injury." As a result of these changes, the number of divers grew dramatically. Dive related businesses flourished, and, of course, PADI raked in a whole lotta dough. All good, right?

Well, a lot of divers don't think so. Many people feel that traiing should continue to be as rigorous and thorough as it once was. They feel that the role of training and certification is as a barrier to entry, assuring competent, capable divers. This is similar to the thinking behind making med school so tough - it makes better doctors. They realize that it might mean fewer divers, but they are OK with that. Obviously, this group does not include many people whose livelihood is tied to growth of the diving industry.

People argue about whether the changes have caused more accidents, and there is evidence for both sides of that argument. One thing that has changed is that most recreational diving is now done under professional supervision. 20 years ago, all diving operations did was give you a boat ride to the dive site. Now, DM's guide and watch over divers the entire time. Some people resent this. There are large dive operations today that do not let customers assemble their own gear. A lot of operations also require divers to demonstrate some skills before they dive. All these measures, in effect, say that the operators don't place much trust in certifications as evidence that divers know what they're doing.

In fairness to PADI, it must be noted that the other agencies, in order to compete, have floowed PADI down this road to varying degrees. However, there is one glaring difference. PADI does not allow an instructor to REQUIRE more of a student than the PADI standards dictate. There is some wiggle room in this in that the standards require "mastery" of certain skills without defining mastery very well, but, PADI specifically prohibits the requirement of "stressing" drills, which are exercises designed to task load the student or place them under stress while performing skills. Other agencies do allow this - for insatnce, NAUI has the "loved one" test - the instructor is not required to certify anyone he/she wouldn't want a loved one to buddy with. Now, obviously, this could be abused, but I've never heard of it happening.

A good comparison is the way driver's licenses are issued in the USA and Germany. In the USA, drivers licenses are almost as easy to obtain as the prize in a Cracker Jack box, and we have oppressive speed limits. In Germany, they have a test that many American police officers couldn't pass, but then trust people who hold licenses to determine a safe speed on their own. Diving once was like the German system, but is now more like the American system, and PADI is largely responsible for that change. Some people think it's for the better, some don't. You've probably surmised by now that I fall into the latter group, even though I'm a PADI member. You'd be surprised how many people who are PADI professionals resent the way PADI has gone. Jokes that PADI stands for "Put Another Dollar In" or "Pay Alot, Dive Immediately" originated with PADI instructors.

At a PADI member Update presentation a few years ago, we were told "We're not selling education; we're selling entertainment!" Decide for yourself if that's a good thing.

DougK:
What is DIR?

DIR (Doing It Right) is the strongest segment of the backlash against the trend outlined above. It is a movement that says divers should be thoroughly trained, should select equipment based purely on objective considerations, rather than personal preference or fashion, and that diving is a potentially dangerous activity to be taken seriously, not to be compared with, say, golf. The principles of DIR were worked out primarily by a group of cave divers in Florida called the WKPP, who are doing very extreme diving, based on analysis of past accidents and practices. It is an evolving system, but the central idea is that all practices must be based on objective principles, not emotional whim or aesthetics. The most well known aspect of DIR is the equipment configuration, and many people will say they are DIR simply because they have that configuration, but they are not. Among other things, DIR says that divers should be VERY physically fit, so some obese slob can't become DIR simply by strapping on the rig, as is an all too common practice and claim. Proponents of DIR tend to be VERY dogmatic, and this puts off a lot of people. There is an agency, GUE, that is rather small, that teaches strictly by DIR principles.

People here and elsewhere have very strong opinions on both these issues. Keep in mind, that most people enter diving through a single weekend PADI course, and thus start out thinking that's the cat's meow. As people advance in diving, they learn more, and those who adopt the DIR point of view do so gradually. As Frank Herbert said, there is no one as zealous as a convert, and this accounts for a lot of the strong rhetoric from the DIR people. Asking someone who recently adopted DIR principles about PADI is like asking an ex-smoker about smoking - you won't get a timid answer.

Do some more investigation. GUE puts on DIR demos at dive sites around the country. Look, listen, learn, investigate, and dive, and evaluate the issues yourself.
 
dweeb:
People will rant and argue about this, but it is objective fact that you can now get OW certified in one weekend, when it once took months...
Exactly when was this? As far back as the early 80's, I recall weekend certification courses - especially for private lessons... Not saying it was a good idea, but remember, not too far before that, you didn't need certification at all. I will venture to say that crawling 50 yrds in full gear across a field really doesn't teach or enhance your diving skills much, but there were agencies that did that at one time...
 
adder70:
I will qualify this with a disclaimer that I am not DIR (I must be Doing it Wrong! :11: :D )

DIR is a technical diving philosophy.

No, it is a DIVING philosophy that originated among technical divers. There's a big difference.

One of the wonderful(not) legacies of PADI is the euphemism of "recreational" vs. "technical" diving, and the idea that recreational divers need be neither competent nor responsible for themselves. I know people who have gone miles into caves, but did it just for personal recreation.
They were, strictly speaking, despite the tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear and months of training, recreational divers. No one paid them money to dive that cave, and they weren't prosecting, rescuing, or under duress to do so. They did it because it's what they like to do, JUST like someone doing a shallow reef off a cattle boat.

As has been observed countless times, you can embolize in the shallow end of a pool. The single greatest increment in personal risk any diver faces is when you put a regulator in your mouth and drop below the surface, no matter if it's 10 feet or 300. What's dumb and dangerous practice on the Doria is also, for the most part, dumb and dangerous in the local pool. Common sense doesn't change dramatically as one goes into more challenging diving scenarios.
 
dweeb:
One of the wonderful(not) legacies of PADI is the euphemism of "recreational" vs. "technical" diving, and the idea that recreational divers need be neither competent nor responsible for themselves.
That's neither fair, nor true. Most agencies (PADI & others) defined "recreational" limits to apply to what was taught in their courses, which included depth and non-overhead (hard or soft) requirements. You can argue semantics, but if you are saying that the training for the Doria will mimick the training, in toto, for a 60' warm water reef dive, then I think you'll have to lump all "recreational" agencies together vs the "technical" agencies.
 
adder70:
If you have interest in technical diving, look into DIR before you buy a lot of stuff, since DIR divers are expected have a particular set up.

I don't think its only if you have an interest in technical diving. You should also at least look into the equipment configuration irregardless of how you feel about DIR.

Even for the purely once-a-year-tropical-vaction-rec-diver the Hogarthian rig can convey benefits. For example, if you get a face-full of your buddies fin that kicks your reg out of your mouth, you can immediately go to the bungee'd backup -- no searching for where your primary reg wound up getting kicked behind you, no trying to find where your octo is danging -- which results in reduced levels of stress in dealing with the problem.

Likewise, the benefits of a BP/W, the elimination of danglies, the use of wrist gauges to produce a 'dashboard', etc all can have their benefits for divers who have no interest in technical diving and no interest in drinking DIR kool-aid.
 
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