Shell Collecting/Live Collection/Endangered Species

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Ok well now I'm going to have to say that your reasoning is not quite justified.
You have admitted to collecting them for pure enjoyment. No harm in collecting shells.
But remember that there are things living in those shells.
I'm not really liking the fact that you refer to them simply as shells.
It's akin to looking at elephants simply as ivory.

Your saying that we are decimating our marine life, which I agree with.
But taking living animals for their shells is contributing to that.
Triton Trumpet do kill Crown of Thorns. If too many die then their populations will decline.
Ever hear what happened when the fur trade wiped out the majority of Sea Otters?
There's a balance to be kept and it can easily tip one way or the other.
There are certain ecosystems that can go into a completely different phase shift and never recover until something completely drastic happens, which takes a long long time to happen.

That owner who got her shells from a local fisherman. If her story checks out then she's probably right. Most gastropods that don't live in the intertidal will probably die of dehydration pretty quickly. So there would be no way for those individuals to survive. Knowing fisherman, it usually takes quite a bit of time to return to harbor.


Me taking maybe ONE Tritons Trumpet? (IF I'm even lucky enough to find one). "Too many dying" are a result of commercial "collecting" so you can pay $50 to buy one in the many Florida and elsewhere shell shops. My collection of about 40 YEARS wouldn't fill 5 baskets of shells in a tourist shop. Fishermen losing TIME to return the shells to water? All they would have to do is release them in maybe 5 feet of water?-that looks like a money (they want to sell whole bunches of them for an extra buck?- I don't know, I'm not trying to make a living as a Dominican Republic fisherman) and inconvenience thing. What about killing rats/mice or swatting a mosquito? Those are also living things.
 
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Out of curiosity sake, when you say you were remanded, was this on the forums or on a dive boat?

This particular time it was on the Central America forum. But past times on dive boats were also the case.
 
Taking one adds to the list.

Your justification is that your ratio of takes is less than a commercial shell shop. That is true.
But taking is taking.

The fact the fisherman didn't throw it overboard and instead returned to dock with it, already killed it. So there really was nothing that your AOW instructor could do to save it.

Why fisherman don't throw bycatch overboard? Some do, some don't.
Some don't because they cast big nets and don't want to bother sorting through their catch until they get to port.

Mice and mosquitos are a dime a dozen. Your not going to change much by killing a lot of them.
Triton's Trumpets don't exactly reproduce like wildfire.
They release tons of larva into the water column as plankton, most of which don't even make it to growing a shell. They're eaten in the water column.


For the record, I'm not perfect. I kill bugs in my bathroom anytime they invade my personal space.

If you were taking the shell of any common gastropod I would still care. But I wouldn't care enough to say anything. If you found an empty shell then I wouldn't say anything either.
I don't like disturbing anything when I'm underwater, that's just my opinion.

If you want a shell so bad there's really nothing I can do to stop you. I'm not going to get into any physical altercation over anything other than a friend.

If you really want a shell and are willing to put some effort into it, maybe you can check out the commercial docks and see if any fisherman have some shells they'd be willing to let go of.
 
Taking one adds to the list.

Your justification is that your ratio of takes is less than a commercial shell shop. That is true.
But taking is taking.

The fact the fisherman didn't throw it overboard and instead returned to dock with it, already killed it. So there really was nothing that your AOW instructor could do to save it.

Why fisherman don't throw bycatch overboard? Some do, some don't.
Some don't because they cast big nets and don't want to bother sorting through their catch until they get to port.

Mice and mosquitos are a dime a dozen. Your not going to change much by killing a lot of them.
Triton's Trumpets don't exactly reproduce like wildfire.
They release tons of larva into the water column as plankton, most of which don't even make it to growing a shell. They're eaten in the water column.


For the record, I'm not perfect. I kill bugs in my bathroom anytime they invade my personal space.

If you were taking the shell of any common gastropod I would still care. But I wouldn't care enough to say anything. If you found an empty shell then I wouldn't say anything either.
I don't like disturbing anything when I'm underwater, that's just my opinion.

If you want a shell so bad there's really nothing I can do to stop you. I'm not going to get into any physical altercation over anything other than a friend I care about.

If you really want a shell and are willing to put some effort into it, maybe you can check out the commercial docks and see if any fisherman have some shells they'd be willing to let go of.


Thank you. I love debating this. "Taking is Taking": not me, not one, not comparing to the massive exploitation of aquatic life". ONE doesn't matter, particularly in 2010, which unlike 1978, is a year you are a pariah for taking one and no one takes anything beacuse of the last 4 decades.
You say you kill bugs in your bathroon like everybody because they invade your space. THEY, like mollusks, don't think. Do you kill them outside in THEIR environment when they are on your arm?

The shells were dead when my LDS owner bought them?: So she gets to show them off in a collection in the shop anyway? She gets to promote interest in shell collecting? (you may say she promotes interest in viewing or photographing them, and you may be right -- but in which dive mag. or forum have you seen diver's boast of their "shell" photos?).

My collection is of shells only I have found. I have no interest in buying fisherman's "bycatch". If you go into a shell shop with less than $1,000 you can have most all the desirable shells in the world. The fun is finding them yourself. Shells from the Phillipines find their way by the thousands into SE U.S.A. shell shops. Who buys them? What's up with that? In saying I should find a fisherman in the Caribbean, you are saying it's OK for him to bycatch and sell me shells that were alive, no?
 
Shes saying make the most of a situation where people are already making harmful choices. If you really love shells then help shellfish stay around for the next generation.
 
You wrote previously that a fisherman "gave" her those. Which is it?

I never said anything about buying either.
If the fisherman has them and they're already dead, and he's willing to just give them to you......I say take them.

And once again with the shells?
Is it just shells? I feel like your treating these things simply as objects.

Triton Trumpets are hard to find and I'm sure you get a great feeling from finding them. But think about it. There's a reason why it's so hard to find.
One doesn't matter? I'm sure it does if plenty of people just take one. Are there others who do what you do? I'm sure there are.
So why shouldn't you? Personal reasons, that's why.
Honestly, just do what you want to do.

If you get a chance to get your hands on a Triton's Trumpet shell from a fisherman. Not buy but receive, would you take it and be happy with just that?
Or do you only get enjoyment for finding your collections by yourself?
 
One big problem is that you seem to feel above the issue. C'mon squidward (clarinet joke) lets leave the more rare ones. Molluscs have HUGE ecological roles, even when they are dead and gone. People here grab helmet conchs, but they are much less rare
 
You wrote previously that a fisherman "gave" her those. Which is it?

I never said anything about buying either.
If the fisherman has them and they're already dead, and he's willing to just give them to you......I say take them.

If you get a chance to get your hands on a Triton's Trumpet shell from a fisherman. Not buy but receive, would you take it and be happy with just that?
Or do you only get enjoyment for finding your collections by yourself?

OK. Maybe he just gave her the shells. Doesn't change my statement about the fishermen taking hundreds--maybe he liked her. You say "take them". --what message does that send? And no, I would have no interest in being handed a shell free or buying one. My collection is collected by me.
 
Shes saying make the most of a situation where people are already making harmful choices. If you really love shells then help shellfish stay around for the next generation.

Not an excuse for a nice LDS collection on display. And I don't treat shells as just objects. Don't know where that came from.....maybe a WOMEN'S thing? Geez.
 
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I collected sea shells at one time, and then stopped because I didn't want to contribute to the needless destruction of our ocean - no matter how small my part was. I started collecting back in the late 70's while stationed at Kadena AB, Okinawa Japan. Many of my fellow divers were collectors - lots of them actually. I once brought up a very rare cone shell, I was offered hundreds of dollars for it by collectors - including Triton's Trumpet and "secret" locations of lots of Triton's Trumpet. I never sold it because it was not about the money, but about what I found. That shell is still in my collection reminding me of how I have helped in the destruction of those reefs in Okinawa. I will never collect again - period.

Two incidents helped me change my mind. The first was an incident involving Triton's Trumpet and Crown of Thorns. A call was given out from our dive club, the Okinawa Reef Rovers to gather at a reef that was in danger from Crown of Thorns. You see the collection of Triton's Trumpet was so popular that there were not enough natural predators of the Crown of Thorns left, and they breed and multiply fast. The reef was completely saturated with them. So the Air Force and Marine personnel gathered on a Friday afternoon and we began diving until late Sunday afternoon. Our mission was to destroy Crown of Thorns. You can just kill them and cutting them wont work - you have to remove them from the ocean. We used a small fleet of aluminum row boats that each group would drag around with them. We made special swords that had Clorox bottles cut in half to protect our hands. We skewered the Crown of Thorns for hours, from sun up to sundown. We fill those little boats and emptied them over and over, there was a huge smelly pile of dead rotting Crown of Thorns when we were done. We got a bulldozer and loaded them in a huge dump truck and gave the it all to local farmers for fertilizer.

The last I heard about that reef was that it was not doing very well from the Crown of Thorns. They multiply too fast to eradicate them after their population is out of control. Much like the grass roots campaign to eradicate the Lion Fish from the Atlantic, it's better to be proactive than reactive when it's too late.

The second incident involved 3 spear fishermen on the Vision in the Channel Is. I too was a spear fishermen, taking one or two to eat once in a while. But on this trip, that changed. There were those 3, dressed in commercial looking dry suits taking as many fish as each could shoot every dive for three days. They took at least 10 each for 4 dives each day. They were professionals, in the way one took care of the gear, one filleted and one packaged the fish. So that was at least 30 fish a dive times 4 dives for 4 days. No where near what one fishing boat does in a few hours out on Monterey Bay, but it was enough to convince me to leave my spear gun in the holder for the entire trip. Later at home I cut it up into small pieces.

I'm not saying everyone should stop taking game, but just have some sanity about it. I am certain those three went over their limits and the crew said nothing. So be it, I won't take any and others will stand by me. And others will continue to take - that's your choice as long as it is permitted and the fish remain. Abalone, salmon or trout are examples of those that are endangered from a take all you want attitude - the ocean has an endless supply doesn't it?

I hope you find hundreds of Triton's Trumpet where you go on your trip. Though I doubt it, because your not the only one in this ocean taking them.

Maybe you should take up photography and see them forever on your wall in their natural environment. I can understand where your coming from, I did collect them once. The shell I took that was very rare was the Conus aulicus - the Courtly Cone. I wish I never had taken it - though I never took a Triton's Trumpet, because even then I new that they protected our reefs from the Crown of Thorns that I and others tried to eradicate, and failed.

tritoncrown.jpg


A triton's trumpet (Charonia tritonis) attacking a crown-of-thorns starfish, and thus saving the coral reef from one of its most notorious pests. This photo was taken in Australia. (courtesy of Tellus Consultants)
 
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