Should an Instructor have to pay for a boat trip if he/she is taking students?

[drbill]

No boat operator owes an instructor a free ride. It would be foolish to apply this thinking when an instructor brings just a few students on board. After all, dealing with students on a dive boat often involves additional service from the operator and its staff.

However, many boats will give instructors (or other group leaders including trip organizers) a free ride if they bring a certain number of paying passengers on board.

I do a lot of diver "instruction," although not in terms of SCUBA itself... I teach people about the marine life they see to enhance their experience and (hopefully) keep them coming back for more. I wish I got the benefits (keyman deals, etc.) that many instructors and DM's get (I sure could use a new wetsuit at those prices).

Fortunately my LDS (Catalina SCUBA Luv and the utterfly fantastic King Neptune dive boat) see the benefit of having someone on board who is well-versed in regional marine life. Just don't expect me to instruct anyone in the "technical" aspects of diving!

 

[In10se]

I'm with ya one the capitalist perspective. A market driven economy, when allowed to run uncorrupted, is the best model for regional growth. Setting standards for labor has been proven as a necessary component for that growth though. Most often the guy with the greatest influence sets the rules at the cost of the guy doing the heavy lifting. In this case it's the instructors.

Look at any global industry right now. People who were born into lower income third world countries are dieing on the job in much greater numbers than their counterparts in more advanced countries where standards are set. Industry standards are a necessary evil, but are always rejected by those the standards would be imposed upon.

As far as building the instructors portion into the costs of the class ... great idea. Tell the class that the instructor is charging extra for his/her spot on the charter boat and see how far that flies. It's the charter boat that's getting the added business and should, therefor, buck up for the spot.

Having some kind of set ethical standard in the SCUBA world would be hard to do and impossible to enforce. Morality is so often absent when money gets involved, but in this situation the booking of spots on the boat should get some kind of compensation.

Bear in mind that's my opinion, and I'm just a SPORE fresh out of the pool.

 

[Teamcasa]

It's simply a question of marketing, and that is underlined by economics. I'll give a free place if it improves my bottom line. I may do so in the hope that it will improve my bottom line in the longer term. I certainly won't forgo a fare-paying passenger in the interests of giving a free place to someone else - fuel is just too costly nowadays.

This is dead on right. No boat operator can afford to give free rides if it gains them nothing. If a charter is already full and his schedule does not need bolstering, he is not likely to give up a spot just to have more students. Fact is, some operators don’t even want students as it restricts the dive site they have to visit.

If the instructor wants a free ride and he can get it by charging the students enough extra to pay his fare, fine. However, the instructor may have to work a deal with a charter that is not so busy, he may get a free ride from them as they need his students.

 

[ReefHound]

As far as building the instructors portion into the costs of the class ... great idea. Tell the class that the instructor is charging extra for his/her spot on the charter boat and see how far that flies. It's the charter boat that's getting the added business and should, therefor, buck up for the spot.

It'll fly as far as it flies. The instructor can give his students the choice - do your class in a cold murky lake or do it offshore in blue water. Give them the costs for each and let them decide. Better yet, the dive shop can offer the choice at the time they sign up.

Local markets vary. It's not "added business" if the charter would fill the slots with paying customers anyway. Believe it or not, in some places the charters fill up quickly and the operator is turning customers away.

Like I said, you'll have a much better chance of negotiating a free spot or discount for off-season or off-peak days. Nobody discounts prime time. And even if an operator would be smart to offer free spots to drive the added business, not all operators are smart nor is there a law requiring them to be.

 

[Sideband]

Nothing? A class full of bookings to that boat qualifies as more that nothing. That he takes the time to book them alone qualifies him for a commission. Sell a car? Get paid. Sell a magazine? Get paid. Sell a class of dive students to ride a charter boat? Get ... what? Nothing?!?!?!? HE should be paid to bring them on board. No other industry can get free sales and then charge the salesman for the privilege of escorting the customers, accommodating them through the use of the product, and then removing them from the premises ... all while doing his/her best to encourage the return patronage to that business (the charter boat).

How many people do I need to take to a Hertz car rental place before I automatically get my free loaner car? If I load the family into the car and I decide we are going to a particular restaurant do I get to eat for free? If I purchase 4 tickets to a ball game, or a theater, or a movie, do I get free admission? Seems to me there are a LOT of other industries that not only get away with this but would laugh their heads off at you for asking for such a thing.

 

[Teamcasa]

...
Fortunately my LDS (Catalina SCUBA Luv and the utterfly fantastic King Neptune dive boat) see the benefit of having someone on board who is well-versed in regional marine life. Just don't expect me to instruct anyone in the "technical" aspects of diving!

Ya, But Bill, you are famous! (or is that infamous?)

In addition, they know you do bring them some added business and you are fun to be around.

 

[In10se]

How many people do I need to take to a Hertz car rental place before I automatically get my free loaner car? If I load the family into the car and I decide we are going to a particular restaurant do I get to eat for free? If I purchase 4 tickets to a ball game, or a theater, or a movie, do I get free admission? Seems to me there are a LOT of other industries that not only get away with this but would laugh their heads off at you for asking for such a thing.

Call your local Hertz. Tell them you'll be bringing them an average of 7 rental car contracts (my dive class had either 6 or eight people in it) per week every week for as long as they will have your business, and then tell them you want something for your time. Betchya laughter will not be the response.

Local markets vary. It's not "added business" if the charter would fill the slots with paying customers anyway. Believe it or not, in some places the charters fill up quickly and the operator is turning customers away.

Now see ... my noobness denied me knowing that. It was my media driven impression that the charter services were in a bind and some were even going under from a lack of paying customers. If the boat operator is already busy, and the instructor's class is actually more of a hassle than a boat load of experienced divers, than I'd see charging the instructor some kind of added fee for the additional efforts required to handle that hassle. Hell, as an instructor I'd expect to compensate a guy for making him work harder. If, that is ... if ... the operators are that busy. If not, than I'm back to expecting the less than empty boat becoming a full boat deserving the instructor getting a freebie

I'm agreeing with the common sense approach (if common sense was so common, why do so few people have it?) of booking ahead of time with a charter service that wants the business as the way to go. I do stand on the point though, that anyone who expects free business from instructors as the standard is just being greedy. If someone is bringing you steady business he/she is earning something for that. That is pure capitalism in motion.

 

[ReefHound]

Call your local Hertz. Tell them you'll be bringing them an average of 7 rental car contracts (my dive class had either 6 or eight people in it) per week every week for as long as they will have your business, and then tell them you want something for your time. Betchya laughter will not be the response.

Call your local dive operator and make the same assurances and you will likely be treated well. That is not, as far as I can tell, what the OP was talking about. No mention of class size or frequency, and no loyalty to any particular charter as evidenced by the statement "some operators charge me for my spot and some don't" (why not just go with the ones that offer the spot and be done with it?). No mention of even attempting to negotiate a deal. Sounds to me like he wants to make no commitments and just show up randomly and get a free spot automatically.

Now see ... my noobness denied me knowing that. It was my media driven impression that the charter services were in a bind and some were even going under from a lack of paying customers.

Depends on the locality. The OP is in Ft Lauderdale which is a dive tourist destination. Most areas have certain "prime times" (usually summer weekends) where they make the bulk of their money and they will not be inclined to give away free spots during this time. Off season or mid week, no problem.

 

[Sonet]

In10se thanks for the back-up and I'm glad you see my point. Walter....you are entitled to your opinion I mean that is one of the purposes of these forums...to discuss things. I'm not trying to catch a free ride but in this business it's kind of hard to catch a break. for example... as an instructor you have to pay to renew you license by paying 100 dollars then every June you have to renew your insurance and that is another 500. Like I said we do not have any fringe benefits and especially if your an independent instructor you have nothing. You have to remember Walter that as an instructor I have to keep the student interested in diving. That means that after I take my students to op x I need to keep them stoked about coming back in other words helping the charter in the future and the industry

 

[Notso_Ken]

Nehh ... you understand. You just disagree.
He covered that question pretty well. Again, you understand but disagree with his line of reasoning.
Nothing? A class full of bookings to that boat qualifies as more that nothing. That he takes the time to book them alone qualifies him for a commission. Sell a car? Get paid. Sell a magazine? Get paid. Sell a class of dive students to ride a charter boat? Get ... what? Nothing?!?!?!? HE should be paid to bring them on board. No other industry can get free sales and then charge the salesman for the privilege of escorting the customers, accommodating them through the use of the product, and then removing them from the premises ... all while doing his/her best to encourage the return patronage to that business (the charter boat).

Yeah he is. At the very least a free ride, and at that he is getting gypped.
I agree with that one. IF the charter service is too cheap to pay what is rightfully due than he can/should seek other arrangements.

NOPE!!!! Absolutely no reason for a non-related boat to give anything free to anybody regardless. They have their expenses to cover. You justr seem to not want them to be able to cover their expenses. Sorry. Life's tough.

Ken