Should an Instructor have to pay for a boat trip if he/she is taking students?

[Sonet]

Reef Hound
I'm not talking about showing up somewhere and expect a free ride. Now that is summer I get a few people that want to get certified. On their last two dives I always like to take them to Key Largo so they can have something diffrent. I use one operation all the time (which I'll keep nameless) and they never charge me for the ride... even if the boat is full. Why you may ask. Because they know that I will always bring them my business.

Now the reason I posted this thread is because the charter that I go with does not go to a couple of sights that I would like to take my students to. As I surfed the net looking for operations I called a bunch of them. Some said I did not have to pay others said I did. That is why I posted this thread. Should it be standard or should it be left to the dive operation?

Anyways the response to this issue has been interesting

 

[In10se]

NOPE!!!! Absolutely no reason for a non-related boat to give anything free to anybody regardless. They have their expenses to cover. You just seem to not want them to be able to cover their expenses. Sorry. Life's tough.

Ken

Hi Ken. Nice to meet ya. I know I'm new here and all, but I'd have to ask ya to show me where I even vaguely implied any such concept. If you own a boat and you want free bookings from someone running regular classes, and you then want to charge them for the pleasure of filling your schedule then you're expecting something you are not due. If you are running a fully packed schedule and don't need the business then tell the instructor no thinks. No harm no foul.

These folks don't make diddly off of their classes as it is anyway. Free air, discount gear, and a free seat with the class on a charter will not pay the bills. The ones I've met have normal full time non-dive related careers and use the classes as a way to supplement their diving addictions.

Sarcasm on Maybe we can get some kind of federal subsidy enacted for dive instructors. If somebody from Guatemala or Panama can run/jump/swim his/her/their way over here and then line up so's they can legally stick a hand in my pocket ... then our local dive instructors should be able to cut in on that line. Sarcasm off

Agree with me or disagree with me as you will, but my main interest is in seeing our dive instructors get a fair shake. The good ones do deserve that from all of us. As the operator of a charter service the higher quality of training your customers get the easier your job will be. That should motivate you to be supportive. That said, friends and neighbors, I'm outta this thread. I do enjoy a quality debate, but I'm not interested in a lengthy debate on such a shallow subject and I think I've already pounded on this one as far as I can.

May all your dives come out just the way you plan them too

 

[Papa Steve]

This is something that has always caught my attention. I have been an instructor for 8 years and when I take my students on boat trips some operators charge me for my spot and some don't. I think it should be made a standard not to charge instructors if they are taking students on your boats. If the instructor is going for his own enjoyment then by all means he should pay. We as instructors have very little fringe benefits, I just think this should be one on them.

Walter is spot on. And, in a sense it's not really a matter of opinion . . unless you're really asking what's better, "a free market, capitalist society, or a socialist system?" Then it's an opinion. But if you're assuming that we're working under a free market system then "no", it's not a matter of opinion. It's fact. This should not "be one on them" unless you had a previous agreement. It's their boat. They can charge what they want. The market may dicate that you decide to take your business elsewhere, where you can get a free seat. But they don't owe you anything.
I'm a little concerned that you think it should be "made" a standard. How would they be "made" to do this? How would it be enforced? Are you an independent instructor? What if a family of five came to these "enforcers" and said that you should be "made" to comp one of their tuitions? You may "want" to do that from a marketing perepective but would you want to be "made" to do it.

Geeeeezeee . . .sorry for the rant. Maybe it's because it's the 4th of July holiday. It was about "independence", right?

 

[ReefHound]

Sonet, spare me the sob story of how instructors work so hard for so little. As a working DM, I feel it in spades. But we voluntarily chose to become "professionals" and no third party owes us anything as compensation. A charter op offers free spots for one reason - they believe it pays off in the long run with increased business. That's great but this is a free country and a business owner has the right to believe otherwise and set his policies accordingly.

Sounds like you have a charter that believes it pays off and will work with you. As you said, they do it because you "will always bring them my business". But you want the same rewards from other ops whom you will not do the same in return. You can't bring several ops "all" your business.

Should it be standard or should it be left to the dive operation? I can't believe you even ask the question. If you were running a charter op I think you would feel it is your right to decide for yourself if free spots, coupons, discounts, advertisements, or any other incentive offered an adequate return on investment or not.

Let me ask you this. If some other instructors believe an instructor should certify the kids of a fellow instructor for free, does that obligate you to participate and provide free instruction if another instructor shows up at your doorstep with his kids? Come to think of it, one of my daughters will probably be getting certified next summer, are you ready?

 

[peterbj7]

Reef Hound
I'm not talking about showing up somewhere and expect a free ride. Now that is summer I get a few people that want to get certified. On their last two dives I always like to take them to Key Largo so they can have something diffrent. I use one operation all the time (which I'll keep nameless) and they never charge me for the ride... even if the boat is full. Why you may ask. Because they know that I will always bring them my business.

Now the reason I posted this thread is because the charter that I go with does not go to a couple of sights that I would like to take my students to. As I surfed the net looking for operations I called a bunch of them. Some said I did not have to pay others said I did. That is why I posted this thread. Should it be standard or should it be left to the dive operation?

Anyways the response to this issue has been interesting

I'm sorry, I fail to see why a separate business should feel obliged to give you anything. If they choose to for marketing reasons that's their business, but there is absolutely no obligation on them nor could there be. Your premise is absurd.

You say your regular operator takes you (for free) even if the boat is full. Can you elaborate on that, as it sounds like something the USCG should be interested in?

 

[ReefHound]

If you own a boat and you want free bookings from someone running regular classes, and you then want to charge them for the pleasure of filling your schedule then you're expecting something you are not due.

That's nonsense. You're due whatever you want to charge, they can agree or go elsewhere. You're forgetting that it was the OP that solicited the dive ops for a free spot, the dive ops didn't contact the instructor asking him to bring students.

These folks don't make diddly off of their classes as it is anyway. Free air, discount gear, and a free seat with the class on a charter will not pay the bills. The ones I've met have normal full time non-dive related careers and use the classes as a way to supplement their diving addictions.

That's not the responsibility of the dive charters. You may be over worked and under paid by your employer but that doesn't mean stores are obligated to give you discounts or freebies to make up for it.

 

[Tigerman]

No.
Currently working in the tourist industry myself, I can give you a quick look at how it works..
If the buisness is fully booked by fully paying customers (high season, special events) theres absolutely no reason to give anyone a "free ride".
If the buisness is slow and there is available slots (low season) it might be better to give one person a discount or a free ride to cover running costs rather than have no buisness and the same running costs.
In the case of a boat (which will have significantly more costs when in operation than when docked) its a matter of how much paying customers you need in order to cover the additional costs of actually taking the boat out that day.

Another thing is that its quite few customers that ACTUALLY bring a relatively high income to a buisness although they might think so themselves. If you come to me and say "ive spent 10k USD here this weekend and expect some benefits over the other customers" I WILL infact laught at you or, if you have a too "important and demanding" attitude just get annoyed by you (behind your back of course).
So wether or not youll get fringe benefits does not only depend on how much you spend each time you go there, it also depend on how much you spend compared to other buisness the operation get. If you spend 1k USD somewhere every weekend of every year is a huge difference to spending 5k USD there one weekend every year. Its (in most cases) not personal, just buisness.

 

[Sonet]

I'm sorry, I fail to see why a separate business should feel obliged to give you anything. If they choose to for marketing reasons that's their business, but there is absolutely no obligation on them nor could there be. Your premise is absurd.

You say your regular operator takes you (for free) even if the boat is full. Can you elaborate on that, as it sounds like something the USCG should be interested in?

Here we go. As Always there is someone who feels the need to threaten people. When I said that my dive op doesn't charge me even if the boat is full I meant that even if they have a diver that is willing to pay they will still keep me on board. Obviously Pete you are a Rookie in this industry. You still havn't felt...how shall I put it...the "draw backs" of being a dive leader. And if you have been around the industry for a while then I really don't get you. By the way it's not a sob story. Your a dive master right. Get back to me when you become an instructor.

 

[Thalassamania]

I believe that even on a six pack "Pros" can sail as crew, so an Instructor can be listed on the manifest as a mate or a deck hand and there are still six salable slots for the trip.

 

[Tigerman]

Here we go. As Always there is someone who feels the need to threaten people. When I said that my dive op doesn't charge me even if the boat is full I meant that even if they have a diver that is willing to pay they will still keep me on board. Obviously Pete you are a Rookie in this industry. You still havn't felt...how shall I put it...the "draw backs" of being a dive leader. And if you have been around the industry for a while then I really don't get you. By the way it's not a sob story. Your a dive master right. Get back to me when you become an instructor.

Whatever certification level anyone holds has got NOTHING to do with ones view on buisness. If its a dive boat, a hotel, a restaurant, wal mart or the burger joint down the street has got nothing to do with certification levels of the customers, its about buisness and paying the costs to run the buisness..