PhotoTJ
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Perfect! If your skills are so bad it's a concern, odds are your c-card will expire with you.
Should C-Cards Expire?
- Thread starter 813Diver
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Perfect! If your skills are so bad it's a concern, odds are your c-card will expire with you.
I believe the dive industry is responsible for ensuring that "it's" divers are safe and competent. If we work on the premiss of honesty and that divers who log lots of dives have more experience and will generally be safer than those who are less experienced, I think we could come up up with a good model for "recertification". Here's what I would propose: C-cards expire within 2years of certification if you don't dive within that time. For every 20 dives a diver logs within 1 year, he or she would have a grace period of 1 year; and this would be cumulative. A year with no dives logged would = lose 1 year of certification.In other words. For example:
Certification date: July 2003
# of dives from July 2003 to July 2004: 60
Certification expires: July 2006
# of dives from July 2004 to July 2005: 20
Certification now expires: July 2007
# of dives from July 2005 to July 2006: 0
Certification now expires July 2006
etc..
In other words; what I'm saying is that the c-card should expire(which meens they should not be allowed to get fills or get gear) for those who dive very little or not at all and they shouldn't expire for those who dive a whole lot...consistently from year to year. Furthermore, the recertification could be as simple as a "Scuba Review".
Whose willing to administrate this sort of thing...beats me...
Certification date: July 2003
# of dives from July 2003 to July 2004: 60
Certification expires: July 2006
# of dives from July 2004 to July 2005: 20
Certification now expires: July 2007
# of dives from July 2005 to July 2006: 0
Certification now expires July 2006
etc..
In other words; what I'm saying is that the c-card should expire(which meens they should not be allowed to get fills or get gear) for those who dive very little or not at all and they shouldn't expire for those who dive a whole lot...consistently from year to year. Furthermore, the recertification could be as simple as a "Scuba Review".
Whose willing to administrate this sort of thing...beats me...
Sorry, all. This debate just doesn't tread water with me. Before a society and/or industry mandates such a thing, there are at least two main issues that MUST be 100% agreed to.
1. The risk of not recertifying MUST be high. I don't mean a careless diver here and there. It's got to be severe. Nobody argues about pilots needing regular checkrides and certifications - BECAUSE IT COULD KILL ALOT OF PEOPLE - I MEAN ALOT... Your safety in diving STILL ultimately resides with YOU. IMHO, there is not ONE reason for recertification that passes this test - period. If you ignore the training and kill yourself by doing something stupid like diving 200 feet on air (To which many of you idiots brag about), or brushing off your computer because you think it is "too conservative" (Yes, I have been witness to this maniac behaviour as well - by a Divemaster of all people) no one is to blame but YOU. It is also YOUR responsibility not to allow another "I think I am immune to all" diver personality kill you on a dive. Sorry for the cruel words, but I have read all I can take in the last few months on this subject.
2. Who the hell is going to regulate this rule - PADI? I don't think so! Money-mongers are already too well established throughout the diving community enough as it is. The underlying reason they push for this is simply because they have an excuse to get more of your money. I recently read a flyer by a dive manufacterer on how they are dedicated to stomping out internet sales. Not ONE sentence in this 4 page waste of paper mentioned "quality" or "safety". It was over "your LDS profits" - period. Yay, I want these people mandating my safety - NOT! I would rather take a night dive with the Manson family in a sewage pond than trust my "safety" to these monsters.
On the other extreme, do you want the government to have full control of it as well? My God, I can see it now - I'll look like I'm out to repair the Hubble Space telescope underwater if the government gets put in charge of it.
The system is FINE the way it is. Self regulation does a decent job in keeping the greedy hypocrits from controlling things enough with regard to my safety and keeps the ultimate responsibility with me.
Let the flames begin
James
1. The risk of not recertifying MUST be high. I don't mean a careless diver here and there. It's got to be severe. Nobody argues about pilots needing regular checkrides and certifications - BECAUSE IT COULD KILL ALOT OF PEOPLE - I MEAN ALOT... Your safety in diving STILL ultimately resides with YOU. IMHO, there is not ONE reason for recertification that passes this test - period. If you ignore the training and kill yourself by doing something stupid like diving 200 feet on air (To which many of you idiots brag about), or brushing off your computer because you think it is "too conservative" (Yes, I have been witness to this maniac behaviour as well - by a Divemaster of all people) no one is to blame but YOU. It is also YOUR responsibility not to allow another "I think I am immune to all" diver personality kill you on a dive. Sorry for the cruel words, but I have read all I can take in the last few months on this subject.
2. Who the hell is going to regulate this rule - PADI? I don't think so! Money-mongers are already too well established throughout the diving community enough as it is. The underlying reason they push for this is simply because they have an excuse to get more of your money. I recently read a flyer by a dive manufacterer on how they are dedicated to stomping out internet sales. Not ONE sentence in this 4 page waste of paper mentioned "quality" or "safety". It was over "your LDS profits" - period. Yay, I want these people mandating my safety - NOT! I would rather take a night dive with the Manson family in a sewage pond than trust my "safety" to these monsters.
On the other extreme, do you want the government to have full control of it as well? My God, I can see it now - I'll look like I'm out to repair the Hubble Space telescope underwater if the government gets put in charge of it.
The system is FINE the way it is. Self regulation does a decent job in keeping the greedy hypocrits from controlling things enough with regard to my safety and keeps the ultimate responsibility with me.
Let the flames begin
James
James,
PADI JEALOUSY...it hurts. Didn't your parents ever teach you that putting others down is just a way of bringing yourself up....shame. Unfortunately, $$$ will always be part of this discussion because without money, people won't work and without people, these sort of things can't be addressed. It would be nice to have ALL diving agencies get together with D.A.N. and discuss this issue in a constructive forum. For now, dive safe, dive lots, dive well and there's nothing wrong with reviewing skills you don't have a chance to practice!
PADI JEALOUSY...it hurts. Didn't your parents ever teach you that putting others down is just a way of bringing yourself up....shame. Unfortunately, $$$ will always be part of this discussion because without money, people won't work and without people, these sort of things can't be addressed. It would be nice to have ALL diving agencies get together with D.A.N. and discuss this issue in a constructive forum. For now, dive safe, dive lots, dive well and there's nothing wrong with reviewing skills you don't have a chance to practice!
Wow, I must HIGHLY apologize for singling PADI out like that, now that I reread my post. To ceaveat, I HAVE seen some really questionable things going on with them, but again, I stand that IMHO, I can't trust ANY "Standards Organization" to regulate diving as a whole. It is suprizing that you can hear many a PADI instructor group grumbling to each other in dark bar corners about them, nonetheless.
I sincerely hope you understand that my choice of terse tone was NOT to put anyone down other than those who "know who they are". After my limited diving time, I have seen and heard enough nightmarish stories to not trust any of them completely. Imagining this mess extended to expiration dates and 'regulation' scares me completely!
I sincerely hope you understand that my choice of terse tone was NOT to put anyone down other than those who "know who they are". After my limited diving time, I have seen and heard enough nightmarish stories to not trust any of them completely. Imagining this mess extended to expiration dates and 'regulation' scares me completely!
AngieDiver69
Guest
I spent too much money on my PADI 'Enriched Air Full-Cave Snorkeler' rating to have anything left over for a recert fee. sorry.
Stacy
Registered
i'm one of those people who has been out of diving for a while. i wouldn't even think about going diving again without reviewing things with an instructor. I can't fathom just jumping back in and hoping everything went well.
i think expiring c cards and redoing the course IS overkill, and definitely financial in interest. however, i do think that if someone hasn't dove in a year they shold do a 1:1. Skydivers are required to do this, depending on experience levels there are different amounts of time you are allowed to be out of the sport before becoming "uncurrent" and needing a supervised experience.
ah well.
i think expiring c cards and redoing the course IS overkill, and definitely financial in interest. however, i do think that if someone hasn't dove in a year they shold do a 1:1. Skydivers are required to do this, depending on experience levels there are different amounts of time you are allowed to be out of the sport before becoming "uncurrent" and needing a supervised experience.
ah well.
I dont see a large benefit for a required re-sert with possibly a basic skills review maybe at 5 year intervuls. The cost shouldnt be any more than what you might expect for an hours time in the water. I would be supportive of a re-sert of the performance requirements for proffesionals like DM or Instructors as they are responsible for the wellbeing of there students etc. while in the water. Just my thoughts.
Bill
Bill
It is time for all SCUBA instructors to look past the minimum training standards and objectively evaluate whether a student is a capable diver. I would not go as far as saying that there should be no C-card, just better training. Four dives over 2 days is not enough time for any diver to develop the necessary skills.
Finally, I agree with you that its the new instructor, who cannot dive thats the problem. DAN statistics show that it is not the new diver that is more likely to be injured, rather its the Divemaster/Instructor who is more likely to be injured.
Ive sat though many PADI instructor evaluations and seen some new candidates who cannot hover underwater. At least these candidates can go home and practice before trying the IE again
Krisscuba
Contributor
I have been an instructor with several agencies. There are agencies that offer extended open water programs with more dives, just as others,.. i.e. SSI requires 20 dives for advanced.
It's about money,...people don't want it,..They want to pay the min and do the min for the card. If you do not offer them Open water one weekend and advanced the next,..they will go somewhere like PADI and get it.
Basic Open Water is not designed to turn someone into a Mike Nelson,..or turn them loose drift diving the gulfstream. It just means that they have the min skills required to dive safley with an experienced diver under the conditions trained in until they get more experience or training.
Instructors can hold people back,...when was the last time you saw a PADI instructor ever fail someone?
It's about money,...people don't want it,..They want to pay the min and do the min for the card. If you do not offer them Open water one weekend and advanced the next,..they will go somewhere like PADI and get it.
Basic Open Water is not designed to turn someone into a Mike Nelson,..or turn them loose drift diving the gulfstream. It just means that they have the min skills required to dive safley with an experienced diver under the conditions trained in until they get more experience or training.
Instructors can hold people back,...when was the last time you saw a PADI instructor ever fail someone?
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