Should OW certified divers be taken into a deep wreck? Overhead? Thread split

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Jim Lepenta post 104, I think has best worded, much of my thoughts. In addition to his, My concerns is, this is not so much a trainer problem, it is an industry problem and all of us are part of that problem when ever we, by words or action, suggest that it is ok to ignore what they were trained. We are all guilty of it. So many of us are vetern divers and for the most part well understand the precautions involved. To many of us transfer our abilities to someone else to justify taking someone to places they probably shouldn't be. No one wants wants to be the party pooper for the group. Whether they know it.... they need us to recognize situations and premptively stop potential hazardous behaviors. People are very impresssed by the actions of others. One bad example by one diver , in some cases , will negate all the good that great instructors have taught, not to mention the loss of the instructors crediblity, for being over safety minded. Now add at the beginning of the problem, an instructor that will only teach the absolute minimum required for an OW card. I think that i can safely say that, all of us, on some 2 tank dive trip have watched total failure of buddy system, preperation and execution of a dive at the most basic levels. The type of things that, if someone else was not there, the insta buddy would let the tank fall off and go to the bottom. Some people never get out of the classroom train of thought and take responsibility them selves. I bet that if we started a thread called "WITNESSED RED FLAG BEHAVIORS" we would get all the reasons to be more vettng of dives we undertake and with whom.

For the sake of this discussion I will conceed that the OW card is good for 130'. Now.... Just because the card is good for the dive,,, doesnt mean the holder is.
 
For the sake of this discussion I will conceed that the OW card is good for 130'. Now.... Just because the card is good for the dive,,, doesnt mean the holder is.

"A man's got to know his limitations." - Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry :D
 
The thing even with these "clean" wrecks is that there is always something that could cause a problem for the untrained, poorly trained, or inattentive diver. It's been a few years now but Grove was originally down upside down, then on it's side, then flipped upright by a hurricane. Welded hatches break open, beams twist, etc.

The Vandenberg was a text book sinking more or less. But still stuff can happen as it hits the bottom. Plus the damn thing is made of metal that rusts and corrodes. At some point things are going to start collapsing and changing.

Wave welcome to SB and I am glad you are ok.
I would like to echo comments Jim is making with a personal example from a dive a few years ago in the Great Lakes.
I am going to speak clearly but not use any names or locations.
We were diving a cleaned, sank wreck with depths in the 80'+ range.
It was a stellar day with vis at near record levels, you could see the wreck from the surface which was amazing!

We were a mixed bag of divers with several Cave divers , several wreck divers with experience and several OW divers with little experience.
Our first dive was spot on according to plan as we penetrated some of the tighter areas and we exited in our two man teams.
On our second dive the guide declared that he would lead the group of 5 + himself through the narrow hall way into the forward section of the wreck.
I disagreed simply stating that it was to many people to guide in the narrow silty passage.

I was out voted and then decided to bring up the back of the group, Im familiar with no vis and have dove in black water NO VIS before.
This wreck was a familiar site I had been on it twice before.
As I suspected the vis went to near zero and by the time we hit the boiler room it was blown.
Guided yes but I was praying that the guide pulled the plug before entering the forward section.
I could not tell as I was left to sort out my exit alone.

I was not in any way concerned however when I felt a railing I knew I was in the boiler room.
That was a relief as you could exit across the room to the right via stairway to the main deck.
The part I did not realize was that I had slipped between the railing and the stairway.
Back Mounted 95's came to a halt as I inhaled so I reached forward carefully exhaled and pulled a bit.
I came free so I inflated weaving through the top of the boiler engine to the exit.
Once I reached the exit I became entangled in the stairwell of the exit in cable that had fallen with a large pipe that was cross wedged into the exit.
This was not there in the previous dives in the last season.

I made it out and all were safe but this was a "CLEAN" wreck that was far from it!
Jim's point and mine it doesn't matter clean or not no wreck is safe!
I have seen bulk heads that were in place one season crash over the winter.
I have had rivet heads cascade down in front of me inside the hull.
I have had narcosis so take over a buddy he could no longer control his BC.
Training and experience that is gained by taking the time to dive and earn it is priceless in this realm.

In my opinion and please take this to heart, I will never entrust my life to a guide totally.
My explanation is I want to make navigational decisions as Ive been trained to do so.
If we are inside a unfamiliar wreck I will run a line or progressively penetrate to desired points then exit.
If my guide has a heart attack or expires I want to be able to get my own rear end out of there!
OW divers have no business in a overhead.

I understand a swim thorugh and I want to be clear it is still an overhead.
Enter at your own risk!
A little bit of training goes a long way when pondering overheads.
Take a cavern class and you will find out what risks you are taking.
100' comes with its own hazards that are all to real.

Just some things to consider but when its your life, are you ready to die?
I have been in some really messed up dives and none of them were planned to go bad but they did!
When I have regained my wits never have I regretted the time and efforts to train and gain experience to safely execute my planned dives.
Surviving a emergency is more about trusting your training and keeping a cool head suppressing the urge to panic.
Are you afraid, of coarse you are but you do not let it cloud your judgement.
Seek the training, take your time gaining experience, and enjoy the ride!
This is supposed to be fun!

CamG
 
Im in SE texas. When it freezes or snows i get off the road. not because i cant drive on such road conditons its because the other guy cant. And both of us have the same license. There are times when if you cant keep them off the road, then you have to give them the whole road, and stay off yourself.




"A man's got to know his limitations." - Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry :D
 
My son went to Mexico a few months ago. He is not a diver, not interested in diving and living on another continent we do not talk about diving.

He an his group of work mates he was holidaying with booked onto one of the "Excursions" offered by the Resort. It was a snorkling/diving trip part of the attraction was an ocean cave.

When they got there and were given the brief there were two "DM's" only one certified OW diver all others on snorkle. The brief explained they would go out to this cave, submerge, hold their breathe.... go underwater into the cave which was open to the air. They might need to submerge to get into the cave because of the tide level. The tide was rising. The other "entry" was accessed by swimming a ways around the island. When they got to the cave entry... sure enough.. it was underwater.

My son said... "Forget it, I'm not trained for that." Some of the others tried to reassure him, told him not to be afraid! His answer.... "It has nothing to do with being afraid .... It has everything to do with being stupid!". He didn't need a DM or an Instructor to teach him, be a role model.... that was my job 30 some years ago and the lessons stuck!

Apparently the one and only certified diver on the boat came back from his dive with the DM shocked at where the DM had taken him. The DM apparently did a dive to please himself with "only one diver" he felt it was ok to take him into the dark areas of the cave and have a jolly time doing whatever he wanted. DM told him it was almost like having the day off to go diving! The OW Diver told my son.... I was kinda scared for a lot of that, but I figured I had better just stay with the DM! I sure don't want to do that again tho! My son was telling me about his trip and how unbelievable he thought it was that diver just meekly followed the DM. :shakehead:

This is the kind of unthinking behaviour that gets people killed! IMHO both the DM and the OW diver were being irresponsible! I wouldn't even call that a "Trust me dive" clearly if the diver spent as much of the dive afraid as he said.. he didn't trust the DM or his own skills to keep him safe!
 
Even now think of the hazards a simple light fixture poses to a diver that loses buoyancy control and gets hung up on it. Couple that with the depth and a low on air situation and you have a dead diver within feet of several openings that they can't get to if they panic and don't stop to think. The guide who took untrained divers on a penetration might as well have handed them revolvers with one bullet and told them to spin the cylinder and pull the trigger.
The post above is representative of the view of a number of posts related to this incident, insisting that the DM has the major blame for this incident. Similar posts blame the buddy.

In the past I have seen others express a different view. Take this post from this thread for example.
But in any case it came down to, that in my early training, believing that someone other than myself was ultimately responsible for my own safety. Nothing could be further from the truth. Up until I recieved my c card it is true that the instructor was responsible for my safety. And during training, even to this day, that is somewhat true when undertaking a new course that involves new risks and challenges. Once that card is received however it is an entirely different story. At that point it is the divers responsibility to look out for their own safety. As certified divers we should be capable of diving with a buddy of equal skill in conditions similar to or better than what the training was conducted in without the assistance of a DM, A/I, or Instructor.

If this is not the case then that diver should not have received a c card. The diver should be fully capable of planning the dive, doing all the necessary pre dive checks, executing the dive, and exiting safely from the water. This is the responsibility of the diver along with being able to make the decision to NOT DIVE should conditions or the dive plan be beyond the skill, training, or comfort level of the diver. In cases where a Divemaster or other guide is employed it still falls ultimately to the diver to dive or not. Many times this is not conveyed to the new diver by his/her instructor. As a result the divers again do not know what they do not know. They end up doing what are known as "trust me dives". Many times nothing untoward happens on these dives. But unfortunately the odds are against this being the case every time. And when something does go wrong it may go so wrong as to result in serious injury or death.

Now we enter into a realm where the lines of responsibility may become blurred. Perhaps the DM should not have let the person dive or taken them on the dive? Perhaps the op should not have let them on the boat? Perhaps the divers buddy should have said something or maybe other divers on the boat who may have known of the lack of training or skill level of the diver? In any case the results do not change. A diver is hurt or dead.

...

The Dm on the boat does not plan your dives. They give a briefing on the site, emergency procedures, boat etiquette, and times allotted for the dive. They may even get in the water. many times they do not. In any case no matter what you may hear or assume, THE DM IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for keeping you safe! Neither is your buddy! You are.

If you are not comfortable with this stay out of the water! If you are not comfortable with being responsible for yourself your training was seriously lacking, you were not paying attention in class, or you need more time in the pool and should not be diving in open water. At this point it is your responsibility to go to the instructor and communicate your concerns.

It is my contention that once a diver is certified he/she is responsible for their own safety. The task then of the instructor is to instill this sense of personal responsibility in his/her students. If this is not done the class needs to be reevaluated to insure this is the end result. To turn students loose in the water less than capable with the idea that they will find out they need more training and come back to learn what should be basic skills is a disgrace and a clear demonstration of greed.

Dive ops that allow unqualified divers to do dives beyond their ability are a disgrace to the industry. It would be better to choose more benign sites or require the divers pay for a personal guide or instructor than risk the headache of a coroners inquest or police investigation. Not to mention the two bit shysters that seem to come out of the woodwork looking to make a quick buck from others tragedies. Being that there really is no governing body that regulates the industry, and should not be, it is up to the industry itself to insure that ONLY properly trained and qualified people are in the water.

This unfortunately is not the case. Programs based in profit or marketing and designed to get people in the water as fast as possible are the norm. There are still though, programs which offer a more comprehensive and thorough training program to divers. It is up to the diver to decide which they wish to enroll in. It is up to them to decide how much training they wish to get. It is up to them to do some research to find the best fit for them. They should spend at least as much time as they would choosing a new car. It really does come down to the potential diver to decide what their life is worth. And decide just how much training they feel is needed to preserve their safety.

And what are we doing when we dive? Playing in the water? Swimming around underwater without having to surface as often? Seeing cool new stuff? Doing something different than alot of other people? Yes to all of this. But we are also doing this. We are entering an alien environment that is normally hostile to human life without mechanical means. We cannot breathe underwater. We rely on a few pieces of metal and plastic to keep us alive by allowing us to breath a finite amount of air that we must also carry. Sounds a little more serious that way doesn't it. Did your instructor point it out that way to you? Chances are they did not. Why not? It might have caused you to rethink this whole business. If so, GOOD!

This is not a game. Your life depends on the training you receive, the decsions you make based on that training, and the decisions you make after training. You, the diver are responsible for your own safety regardless of what anyone else says. Your buddy could get lost, the DM may get hurt, lost, or busy with another diver. If an issue occurs, no one but you will be there to save your ass. Think about that. You may need to save your own life. If that does not make you rethink the idea of who is responsible for your safety you might want think about finding another activity. It is not fair to your buddy, the DM, the captain, the op, or the resort to make them responsible for your life. You don't pay them for that.

The boat is a taxi to get you to and from the site safely. The driver is no more responsible for you when you step off than the taxi driver who drops you at a hotel. You would not sue the taxi company if you exited the cab, walked into your destination, and fell down a flight of steps.
I thought it might make an interesting shift to the conversation to compare those points of view.
 
I thought it might make an interesting shift to the conversation to compare those points of view.
I'd answer that responsibility IMO isn't a zero-sum game. Problem solved, no more dilemma.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Absolutely. No matter what, you are the one deciding what you are going to do. No-one can take that responsibility away from you, as long as you're a competent adult. OTOH, that doesn't mean that others can have additional responsibility. If you were leading me into an overhead environment, me in my single tank, single first stage setup without a pony, I'd still be as responsible for my own actions. However, you would be additionally responsible for leading me into a situation that neither my training/experience nor my gear is suitable for. And if I expressed doubt at the idea, and you persuaded me to follow in spite of my misgivings, you'd be additionally responsible for my sad demise when my reg free-flowed, the place silted up and I didn't make it out alive. My own responsibility wouldn't be less, but you'd carry quite a weight, too.

Does this make sense?
 
The post above is representative of the view of a number of posts related to this incident, insisting that the DM has the major blame for this incident. Similar posts blame the buddy...

How do you blame anyone without knowing the actual COD and all the surrounding circumstances? It is an interesting philosophical discussion, but not an accident analysis.
 
How do you blame anyone without knowing the actual COD and all the surrounding circumstances? It is an interesting philosophical discussion, but not an accident analysis.

In case you did not notice, this is a thread split off from the original thread. It is a philosophical thread and not an accident analysis, and it is not in the Accidents and Incidents Forum. It is in the Basic Diving forum

---------- Post added March 14th, 2015 at 10:43 AM ----------

I'd answer that responsibility IMO isn't a zero-sum game. Problem solved, no more dilemma.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Absolutely. No matter what, you are the one deciding what you are going to do. No-one can take that responsibility away from you, as long as you're a competent adult. OTOH, that doesn't mean that others can have additional responsibility. If you were leading me into an overhead environment, me in my single tank, single first stage setup without a pony, I'd still be as responsible for my own actions. However, you would be additionally responsible for leading me into a situation that neither my training/experience nor my gear is suitable for. And if I expressed doubt at the idea, and you persuaded me to follow in spite of my misgivings, you'd be additionally responsible for my sad demise when my reg free-flowed, the place silted up and I didn't make it out alive. My own responsibility wouldn't be less, but you'd carry quite a weight, too.

Does this make sense?

The PADI tech diving program teaches self sufficiency as a key attribute in diving. You have many resources for helping you in times of trouble. That includes teammates, but teammates are last on the list. You should be able to complete your dive alone if you have to.

That's a technical diving course. How does that apply to recreational diving?

We see a lot of threads on ScubaBoard about dealing with DM-led dives. It is very common for someone to chime in with a statement that essentially says, "No DM is going to tell me what to do. If I want to do something else, I will do something else, by golly." So what is the DM supposed to do when you do something else, by golly? I was on a DM-led dive in Cozumel a few years ago, and we chose to do the second dive on Paso del Cedral, a site with a very fun swim through segment. We wanted to do that swim through. My buddy was of the "I'll do what I want" variety. He had a lot of life time dives and a lot of skill. He drove me crazy by constantly darting off here and there, pulling me away from the group. He did that on this dive, going his own way for a while. I stayed at a midpoint, able to watch the group at he edge of visibility while still watching him. The DM stopped the group at the beginning of the swim through area and looked back at me. I pointed to my buddy. I could sense the WTF disbelief on the part of the DM. My buddy had gone far enough in the current that there was no way he could get back to us. The DM led the group after my buddy, and we finished the dive. Back on the boat, my buddy asked the DM what happened to the swim through we were supposed to do.

On another DM-led dive in Cozumel, my buddy lost buoyancy control in a very strong current and started to ascend. I started up after him and followed all the way to the surface. The boat was there. He said he was not doing well fighting the current, and he was quitting the dive. The boat picked him up. I looked down and could still see the rest of the group. I descended, exchanged OKs with the DM, and we finished the dive. In that case, the DM evidently made the decision that all was OK, and it was not necessary to bring the entire group to the surface to follow that diver.

So is the DM so responsible for the group that if he thinks someone has gone a different path the rest of the group must depart from the dive plan and follow that other diver? In these two examples, the two DMs made two opposite decisions. Arguably, both may have been correct.
 
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In case you did not notice, this is a thread split off from the original thread. It is a philosophical thread and not an accident analysis, and it is not in the Accidents and Incidents Forum. It is in the Basic Diving forum...

John you eluded to affixing blame. I simply pointed out that doing so is pointless without specifics. Even the parent thread isn’t an accident analysis since there is so little fact to consider. I think I will lay the exclusive blame for every diver death lacking significant evidence on Mody Dick.
 
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