tank position, why not like firefighters

[The Natural]

If you can not reach your valve behind you then your rig is not adjusted right.

Somone beat me to it.

 

[Cfdsmokeater]

I don't have a problem with either setup but......Most all of the SCBA packs (our most recent msa excluded) I have used had a 90 degree metal plate and the bottom of the "backplate" that protects the valve. If somebody came up with a SCUBA backplate with this "protective plate", I would be willing to give it a shot.

 

[fdog]

Sheesh. This question comes up about once a month, and this is the usual sequence:

>..."Why not?"...question.
>The beat-down begins:
>Never done it that way
>It's too difficult to close valve/isolator
>OMG what about on boats
>The hoses are longer
>More breathing resistance
>Non-standard
>You will damage the valve, you dimwit
>This is easier to tangle because the valve's on the bottom
>...and on and on...
>OP, suitably bludgoned, whimpers away.

As someone who puts on an inverted cylinder about 3 times a day at work, and uses it, I can state that there is absolutely no doubt that inverted cylinders are:

>Easier to open/close valves. I can even reach around with my left hand and close the (right-handed) valve, even with the anti-close ratchet our valves have.
>Faster to switch out cylinders. There is just no comparison. Spin, click, pull out the cylinder. Shove in a new one, click, spin on the valve. all done in about 45 seconds, no kidding. I feel handicapped changing out a regular cylinder, let alone doubles.
>More tangle-resistant. Really, you think that those 1st stage(s) and valves behind your head are cleaner than the rounded butt end of a cylinder?
>More durable. Yes, my work airpack gets dropped on it's valve once in a while. Nothing happens except a sheepish look.
>Easier to put on. Yes, I can hear the gasps from BP/W users now...this is a statement from someone with 3 plates in the house, and there is no doubt in my mind, when looked at from the totality of donning the system, BP/W comes in second best.

I'd suggest that for someone to discuss the pros and cons of inverted cylinders for diving, you should have equal experience in both configurations. All you have to do is try it in zero vis, and you'll be sold.

Back to the OP's question: I believe the biggest reason that you don't see inverted cylinders, despite their advantages, is pure inertia of "that's how we always done it".

All the best, James

 

[DiverDebbie]

Ok, so how heavy is a firefighter's tank and pack? It certainly appears to be lighter and smaller than scuba gear. I dive cold water, in a dry suit, mostly shore dives, with an integrated BC. Putting the weights in afterwards is difficult at best. So my gear is heavy. I don't lift it up, but rather use a picnic table or tailgate. So I don't care about the other advantages... and no one mentioned new divers learning the hard way not to place their tank too high up so they don't bonk their head on the valve... If you put that valve on the bottom I'm screwed.
I'd like to think if we can evolve technologically in the countless ways we never thought possible... why can't someone come up with a better solution for diving? I know, I know... don't tell me all the reasons it can't be done.... I get that... but a gal can dream can't she... that one day we'll look back and laugh at all this heavy clunky gear we dive in now.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

All you have to do is try it in zero vis, and you'll be sold.

Uhmm no I won't, actually.

But I don't fight fires in 104's either, and I'm positive if I wiped out and landed on a reg with those baby's it'd be pretty nasty and would certainly bone a whole lot of gear...........vs just an isolator............not that I have any experience with that.....<whistling a cheery tune......>

Let's keep the two totally different uses separate here as what fire fighters do with them is pretty irrelevant to scuba diving.

I also have some angst over my buddy looking at my a$s whilst doing a bubble check. I guess I don't trust him enough.

 

[lamont]

I'd suggest that for someone to discuss the pros and cons of inverted cylinders for diving, you should have equal experience in both configurations. All you have to do is try it in zero vis, and you'll be sold.

I've played around with a pretty much worst-case no-viz slack line line entanglement around my manifold with a standard setup and been able to get out of it. The worst case of getting a line entanglement around an upside down manifold seems worse to me since you've got to reach around behind your butt, and that's actually a harder reach for me than the manifold behind my head (getting the reel off the butt d-ring or pulling the SMB out is always quite a pain, and the manifold on inverted doubles would be in a worse position than that to reach).

YMMV.

 

[CIBDiving]

I've played around with a pretty much worst-case no-viz slack line line entanglement around my manifold with a standard setup and been able to get out of it. The worst case of getting a line entanglement around an upside down manifold seems worse to me since you've got to reach around behind your butt, and that's actually a harder reach for me than the manifold behind my head (getting the reel off the butt d-ring or pulling the SMB out is always quite a pain, and the manifold on inverted doubles would be in a worse position than that to reach).

YMMV.

In a bad entanglement - you take the thing OFF and clear it. GEEEEESSS.

Lets face it - the reason y'all wear it that way is because you've been taught to wear it that way and for no other reason.

 

[Whatgoesdown]

Just to throw a new spanner in the works... Picture the staff on the dive boats at a busy shop who come back to the dock, have to unload 60 wet tanks and then (sweaty) load up 60 more for the next outing. Since we move tanks two at a time they get picked up by the valve and gravity seems to make them hang downwards. Having to flip them out of the rack and then back in is going to be a real pain. It's dangerous enough anyway! If you want to set up your tank inverted once you are on the boat, be my guest. Just don't expect to find the tank standing on its valve when you get on the boat.

 

[fire_diver]

As someone who puts on an inverted cylinder about 3 times a day at work, and uses it, I can state that there is absolutely no doubt that inverted cylinders are:

>Easier to open/close valves. I can even reach around with my left hand and close the (right-handed) valve, even with the anti-close ratchet our valves have.

I hate those ratchet mechanisms. PITB

>Faster to switch out cylinders. There is just no comparison. Spin, click, pull out the cylinder. Shove in a new one, click, spin on the valve. all done in about 45 seconds, no kidding. I feel handicapped changing out a regular cylinder, let alone doubles.

You should see the new Scott nexgens. 4500psi bottles, pull the ring, drop out the cylinder, slide in the new one, push in to engage. No more spinning. But when my bottle is empty, I'm spent. I don't want another yet.

I'd suggest that for someone to discuss the pros and cons of inverted cylinders for diving, you should have equal experience in both configurations. All you have to do is try it in zero vis, and you'll be sold.

Back to the OP's question: I believe the biggest reason that you don't see inverted cylinders, despite their advantages, is pure inertia of "that's how we always done it".

All the best, James

Funny how people are so quick to bash a configuration they have never used.

FD

 

[fire_diver]

Ok, so how heavy is a firefighter's tank and pack? It certainly appears to be lighter and smaller than scuba gear.

that one day we'll look back and laugh at all this heavy clunky gear we dive in now.

Well, it's a LOT better then it was even 10 years ago. 10 years ago, most departments used steel, 2200psi cylinders. The bunk gear weighed about 3 times as much, and you only got about 15 minutes of work from a bottle.

Basically, a working firefighter, used to have about 60 pounds of extra weight while fighting a fire. This doesn't include the weight of axes, haligans, med bags (another 30 pounds) or charged hose lines he uses.

Brand new, top of the line gear? Air pack weighs about 10 pounds, bunk gear about another 10-12. So it's quite a bit better.

FD