Tanks - True cost of ownership

[tomfcrist]

I agree with you, but for most people diving nitrox, the NOAA mixes are usually good enough and you just eat a bit of extra deco if you're a point or two off.

Id be more concerned with ppo2 at depth. 32% is good to 111fsw using 1.4 as a max.

From a business standpoint, the shop owner needs to make a determination of how profitable(or not) banking a particular blend will be based off of how much of it is sold. For some shops that means PP blending, and for others it means banking a psrticulsr mix..I've seen 28, 30, 32, 36, 50 etc banked at different ops. It all depends on their determination of profitability.

 

[Superlyte27]

A PSI number on an inspection sticker is pretty easy to verify

 

[tomfcrist]

A PSI number on an inspection sticker is pretty easy to verify

True, but I can get stickers made for my "dive shop"(which I don't own) without any verification. Honestly, if I showed up in Florida with tanks O2 cleaned in VA with a shop sticker, would you question it? Would you call the shop?

 

[tbone1004]

Tom, I hear you, in cave country you usually see 32% and air, can get 30 and 28 from that if you need it, off the coast of NC you can get 30 and 36, which can be blended to 28 or 32 or anything less than 36. No need to PP with pure O2 at that point and it is safer/cheaper/easier on the shops to do it that way. If you're doing breather stuff then I can see PP blending, but the point is I see far too many shops PP blending without banking anything but air and since a nitrox stick is stupidly inexpensive, it pays for itself in labor time alone in about 10 fills, and a few T bottles of saved O2 since the compressor can suck them dry, and is much safer than PP blending with pure O2, one of the few things I am whole heartedly in agreement with GUE on as far as standard gas mixes, just makes life easier

 

[kwinter]

First, find a new shop. Yours sucks and is trying to rip you off, mainly because you didn't buy a tank from them. Secondly, put the o-ring on the valve, put the valve in the tank. Whack the valve a few times with a rubber mallet to tighten the valve.

If you brought a brand new tank to us, we wouldn't charge you to screw the valve in. That's just bs. We'd fill it. And charge you for the fill. Now, back to the questions.... Buy a tank from us, it comes with fill and vip. A VIP alone would cost $15 and comes with a fill.

Wow, I have to disagree with you on a few things here, pal. First, the shop is absolutely correct. Rules are rules, and if a valve is removed from a tank or if a tank is completely empty, then the tank technically needs a new VIP. This happens all the time when folks fly to vacation with a pony bottle. But that is a technical distinction. From a practical standpoint, it hardly ever comes into play. If you are confident that nothing could have contaminated the tank and the valve is on the tank, you just don't tell anyone that it was off. Now we all know that it is proper to open a valve to bleed out some gas and blow any debris out of the valve before filling it. And if the gas monkey at the shop does that, he could notice that the tank is completely empty and require a new VIP. This is completely kosher and in accordance with regulations. But it certainly is picky.

And please do not EVER whack a valve with a rubber mallet to install it. Hand tight (strong) should be enough. It is the o-ring that does the sealing. I have seen way too many valve stems bent and broken by people whacking valve handles to tighten or loosen valves. If you don't trust that you can hand tighten enough, use a wrench the proper way. Only the slightest bit of leverage is needed.

One solution could be to put the tank into an ice bath before installing the valve. That way when the tank warms up, there might be just enough pressure inside to satisfy the gas monkey. Another solution is to get a transfill whip (very handy to have) and steal a few psi of gas from a friend's tank.

While your shop was being very, very picky, you can't really be too upset. Sort of like a cop giving you a ticket for going 2 mph over the limit.

 

[Akimbo]

Valid VIP and O2 cleaning or not, an open cylinder for an unknown duration effectively voids it. The dive shop in question may be a “little” uptight, but aren’t entirely unjustified.

Especially were O2 cleaning for 100% service is involved, keeping everything capped (and bagged in the case of valves and other gas components) until the final moments of assembly is standard procedure in many industries.

The Navy was really anal about it. Everything in the breathing system besides cylinders, long tubing runs, and hoses had to be assembled in a class 100,000 clean room. Everything was plugged and heat-seal-bagged before getting outside. A bit over the top for pure Helium lines.

 

[Jax]

So, when I dropped of the tanks to get filled with 32% EAN, they tell me that since the valve is off they have to do a visual. Even if the current visiual was performed and stickered from a dive shop just last week. (Before they were shipped).

So now, here is my general question:

- If I purchase a brand new tank from say DRIS, it will be in current hydro, but I am assuming I will have to have the shop conduct a visual on a brand new tank before filling. (correct?)
- If I purchase a brand new tank from my shop do most shops include the visual with a brand new tank purchase so there is not added cost?
-What is the going rate for a visual (for Nitrox)

Thanks much

Was the cylinder plugged or left open? There is an O-ring sealed plastic plug when you buy a new bare cylinder from anyone. A used cylinder without a valve could have been left out in the rain on your deck for all anyone knows.

Bottom line:

If you buy a new tank, it should come with vis, O2 clean, and fill.

But as Akimbo says -- from the partial pressure fillers' point of view, they do not know WHAT happened to that tank before they saw it. If that tank somehow got some contaminate before the valve was put in, they are taking lives in their hands. Therefore, charging for a clean and fill is not unusual. Unless you brought it with 500 psi already in it; then the filler might trust that the tank was good.

 

[Tracy]

Install valve, open valve, put in deep freezer overnight. Remove tank and close valve. Allow to warm, take to shop for filling. Tank now has slight positive pressure. Done.

 

[kombiguy]

First, the shop is absolutely correct. Rules are rules, and if a valve is removed from a tank or if a tank is completely empty, then the tank technically needs a new VIP.
he could notice that the tank is completely empty and require a new VIP. This is completely kosher and in accordance with regulations.friend's tank.

I can't seem to find that regulation anywhere.Could you please cite where a VIP is required if the valve is removed or the tank is empty?

 

[boulderjohn]

Wow, I have to disagree with you on a few things here, pal. First, the shop is absolutely correct. Rules are rules, and if a valve is removed from a tank or if a tank is completely empty, then the tank technically needs a new VIP.

I can't seem to find that regulation anywhere.Could you please cite where a VIP is required if the valve is removed or the tank is empty?

I don't have my PSI book with me, but I am pretty sure there is no such rule myself. In fact, if you are talking about the law, there is no law requiring a VIP in the first place.

A lot of shops have a rule about an empty tank requiring a VIP, but that is only their rule, and IMO it is a way to get a few extra bucks from the customer.