The "other" end of the DIR question

[Boogie711]

GJ - here's where I'm confused. You maintain "those decisions have already been made for you."

Here's my point - no, they haven't. No one makes decisions for me. I concede that there are LOTS of times when I wish people WOULD make decisions, but they can't and they don't. You have a right to not dive DIR. MHK and others are very clear - it's not for everyone.

DIR does say "this is what we do." Furthermore, they continue with "and let us tell you why."

If you're so opposed to the restriction of free choice, think of it another way - everyone who dives DIR has made the free choice to dive in that particular style. Does that make you feel better?

 

[HammerNoMore]

What if you're a rototiller who was certified over a weekend? Are you the best one to decide? I would say no.

I would say yes.

What if you believe that going to 164 feet on air is safe? Are you the best one to decide? I would say no.

I would say yes.

What if you believe in hooking your lift line under a piece of the wreck, or hanging unto a piece of the wreck with your knees while you're shooting a bag? Are you the best one to decide? I would say no.

I would say yes. But then again I'm somwhat of a Social Darwinist. I certainly believe in personal responsibility. People who think they know everything but really know nothing often learn the hard way and I'm ok with that.

In fact, I believe the opposite is true. The stronger you argue about how "my trim is just fine, thank you very much" the more likely you are to have just chopped the head off a piece of coral or smacked into a piece of the wreck.

That's a stereotype, and while it is often true, it really doesn't have much to do with why I'm a DIS diver. If you want to keep people from smacking coral setup large fines for doing so and enforce them, be it through DM's or whatever.

I don't believe I'm the best one to make choices regarding my gear configuration and diving style. I believe that honor goes to people who are a heck of a lot smarter and more experienced than I am.

Well, and no offense intended, if you are a sheep who blindly follows advice, then you are probably right. Or are you someone like me who researches and tries various approches looking at the advantages and disadvantages? The most experienced and most talented diver I know is very anti-DIR. By this argument I should run away from DIR at top speed. But instead I see the advantages to some of the aspect and choose to adopt them in my diving.

Ultimately, I am the one who HAS to decide, because I'm not a lemming. But you can be darn sure I'm going to give a real long hard, open minded listen to those who can PROVE they're better than I am.

Which echo's my original post....what was your argument again?

James

 

[dweeb]

IF my info is correct (I trust the source) "JJ" has only been diving since around '92. Not very long for a head of an agency...

Slight problem with your logic there.
I guess you're voting for Jesse Helms for president, right? The people who introduced MRI and CT scanners to medicine had only been practicing a few years.
Longevity does not equal wisdom.

Most people seem to miss one thing. What sets DIR apart from most other diving paradigms is that it analytically examines all aspects of diving, and seeks objective optimization, with no consideration for the emotional vaguaries of 'personal preference.' Do they have the perfect system? No, but at least they're looking for it.
That's what it's all about - optimization. Now, a given individual may not see the need for maximum optimization, but replies like yours and Wyatt's are just egos talking.
"I've been around so long, ain't nuthin' new I can learn!"
Some people just can't stomach being told how to do anything, or, worse yet, accept that they might have been doing something wrong. Sure, Wyatt's 30 years experience with less than maximum optimization is probably as safe or safer than 2 year and maximum optimization, but you can't gain 30 years experience overnight, and I've seen some really crappy divers who've been diving just as long. Dismissal of DIR based on resume length is just like arguing based on the length of a certain male appendage, it's all a swaggering ego match. COmments like Wyatt's are no better than George Irvine's accusations of "farm animal stupidity" and show that belligerent, illogical outbursts are not the sole domain of either side of the dispute.

 

[alikws]

watching the dir/non-dir arguments is almost identical to the civil war reenacting progressive/campaigner/hardcore vs mainstreamer arguments...

the range is:

1 -offended/feel threatened by
2 -spooked by
3 -have heard of, see as a different line with same goal
4 -have learned from, and use parts of
5 -use and like
6 -embrace fully, and feel threatened by those who dont feel same

the most vocal people are on the edges of the scale...

back to the origional question
i score a 3 1/2, mostly because i aquired gear before knowing about, and don't find myself in situations where dir becomes a need [overhead or deep enviroments] .... yet..... but still see myself as on the steep part of the learning curve, even going into my ninth season...

more later - alikws - waterlogged roach mess

"the early bird may get the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheeze"

 

[H2Andy]

if anything, the DIR debate has exposed people to ideas they probably would never
have heard of otherwise.

that is certainly true in my case.

 

[DennisS]

The question I have to the non-DIR divers is why haven't YOU taken up DIR? I too want an honest answer not the run of the mill gobbletygooop.
(thanks Fred for the idea)

You didn't really expect to have a thread with DIR in it and not have the "run of the mill gobbletygooop". Did you? Why would this thread be different than hundreds of others?

1) put up DIR thread
2) everyone brings out their favorite arguments for and against
3) another gobbletygoop thread
4) repeat, over and over and over

 

[lamont]

Boogie - I wholeheartedly agree there are certain things everyone should avoid (hanging on wrecks, tilling up silt, etc). And I'll grant you that DIR probably pounds this into their followers more than most.

That said, even a rototilling newbie can decide (safely, and without worry) whether to wear their guages on their left or right wrist. They can also decide jacket vs bp/w, etc.

However, no matter how skilled a DIR diver your are, those decisions have already been made for you and you have no say in the matter...

You always have the say about weither or not to dive DIR. I made a decision the first time I ever looked at a console to never use one and use wrist gauges because the consoles violated all my own principles of ergonomics and convenience. I then made a decision to adopt DIR after seeing that all of my initial choices were in DIR, plus a lot of things I'd never considered. So far all of the DIR choices have made sense to me (and specifically to the diving which I've done and considering doing). If I ever go lobster hunting I'll clearly need to make decisions about the applicability of diving DIR for lobster hunting -- right now I'm not worried about that in the slightest, though, because there's no lobsters around here.

If you really that badly want me to make a decision to not dive DIR, then show me some way in which making that choice would benefit me and my diving. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[DennisS]

You can dive any way you want, it's a big ocean, have fun

 

[Mako Mark]

Halcyon gear evolved in response to the needs and wants of Hogarthian style divers, so it seems only reasonable that Halcyon gear would be the first choice of most DIR divers.

JohnF

This is a good point, but Dive Rite evolved the same way.

I am not a DIR diver because I was tec diving before DIR became widely recognised.

The Halcyon equipment that I have seen seems to be VERY well engineered, with positive solutions that come only from experience and dissatisfaction of the other gear available.

The wings for example: Radio-weld an inner cordura bag bigger than the outer and you dont have an overexpansion failure, and you have a better material than silicone bladders.

Alas, I still have a number of classic wings to use up, and the Halcyon was a little more expensive.

The spools and reels: I was complaining about diverite reels years ago as they really pissed me off. Now I use aluminium spools manufactured locally, by someone I complained to, that decided to come up with something better and cheaper.

The Halcyon reels have enginered a finer tolerance than the average line diameter in order to reduce jamming. Damn good idea, it might put the price up a little though, but if you want it, pay for it.

When I talk to new or potential tec divers, sure as hell I say "you better be doing it right or not at all", but I dont believe that doing it right, means that we should all do it the same.

There are cultural, logistical and many other other factors involved.

I believe that DIR without a doubt has the correct motives, that they are often hijacked into appearing as dogma by the groupie like enthusiasm of its newer recruits or admirers.

BUT, you cant deny that the accomplishments of some of its founders and members justify a huge amount of respect whether you agree on all the fine points or not. The Britannica is one of the best recent example of this.

Can the DIR crowd put up a spirited argument, HOLY CR*P yes, I have been on the recieving end of that wrath regarding the tec rec program from DSAT.

But I think this comes from a passion for what they do, a large knowledge base and extensive experience.

I have learned plenty from them on this board. (rule number one: dont make them mad), respect them, show appropriate respect where due, and they will share their experience and knowlege with you.

Is DIR the best way, no there never can be a best way, because diving is in constant evolution, but a well thought out system is far better than nothing at all.

Remember, it wasnt that long ago that legends like Tom Mount, Sheck, Brett, Lamar, Dan lins, were all DIY, the had to be as they had no alternative, now we have options they didnt.

I think Doing It Right is:

Buy the best gear you can and if your gear is not up to the dive, dont do it.

Get the best instructor you can, the instructor is more importan than the card.

In the end you have to listen to everybody dogma, then run it over with your kharma.

 

[Zippsy]

You didn't really expect to have a thread with DIR in it and not have the "run of the mill gobbletygooop". Did you? Why would this thread be different than hundreds of others?
1) put up DIR thread
2) everyone brings out their favorite arguments for and against
3) another gobbletygoop thread
4) repeat, over and over and over

Actually, it lasted for more than 100 posts. Also, I wasn't asking for arguments for and against. I was asking for reasons why non-DIR divers chose to not be DIR. (although I also appreciate most of the DIR-divers' quote in here too). Incidently, this thread started when I saw anouther thread ask DIR divers why they went down (or up) that road. That thread was going flame-free so I even stole much of the wording from that original post. Thanks for asking though.