Thinsulate versus Software

[WillAbbott]

I did some searching, and couldn't find any thread directly relating to this, so here goes (feel free to redirect to another thread if I missed it, and it relates directly)

I'm looking for a new undergarment. Currently I have a USIA dry suit, with the exotherm II undergarment (http://www.usia.com/exotherm_II_III.htm)

I currently wear an REI top and bottom from thier mid-weight fleece long underwear (polartec 100), then a fleece vest, and finaly my USIA suit.

It's currently taking me about 30lbs of lead to sink, but once at about 10' depth my wing is at least 1/2 full or more of air.

I'd like to find a suit which is more in a compressed state, or doesn't compress much... in other words something like the thinsulate, which from my understanding has very similar bouyancy at the surface as at depth.

I know GI3 (if you know the name) and many others in the DIR crowd advocate and use only thinsulate undergarments.


The sheer price is stagering... looking at the size chart for stock sizes I am a XS for the waist, a Medium for the chest, and a Large for the height... this doesn't work too well, because either I will have a suit which is too tight/short, or too big around the middle, with excess bulk... so I pretty much need the special production, which is a whopping $200 more... OUCH $618 for an undergarment, I could buy so much other gear for that much money, that's almost 2 tanks.

it seems I may end up getting around 30-40% off from my shop, which would make it just under $400 for the special production (better but still spendy)... also it would probably take at least a month to get the thinsulate (this is the DUI one BTW), just due to the fact my shop probably wouldn't order it for a week, then at least a week to be made, then at least a week to get it back.

I know UP, and many others are using the SoftWare, so please let me know at least how it holds up bouyancy wise. The price is deffinately MUCH better for custom size, and the amount of time I hear it takes to get one.

So has anyone ever actually compared the 2 suits, if not, those with the software, how does it hold up bouyancy wise? does it compress much if any? do you find you need excess weight to sink, and excess lift to be neutral at depth?

My curent config is about 31.5lbs with plate, and I have to fully exhale, and not move just to sink, yet at 10' my wing is full of air... I want to get rid of some of this excess weight I'm carrying, and get my wing down to holding minimal air.

 

[Bob3]

The strong point of the Thinsulate is that, according to 3M, it retains over 80% of its insulative properties when wet. It also resists compression better than most other insulation materials.
[inserting blatant plug]
Other than that, you may want to check out the Viking Thinsulate undies, they're not bound by price controls, and thanks to the poly fleece lining, they are warmer than any other manufacturer's suit using the same weight Thinsulate.
Besides, Viking's undies are made in Canada, where they know about cold, not California, where they go skiing in T-shirts.

 

[rcohn]

Thinsulate is warmer than the fleece, but I haven't seen figures as to how much warmer. Most/All thinsulate garments have no stretch; therefore, they must be cut larger to allow freedom of movement. Note that because warmth is measured relative to the weight of the insulation material, the excess material in a larger cut negates some of the warm advantage (you could use thicker layers of a stretch insulator). More material means more air trapped and more lead needed. Stretch Polartec such as the DUI 300s can be cut very close, minimizing lead requirements and improving freedom of movement. Thinsulate has reduced insulation properties if it is not clean and it is more difficult to launder (multiple rinse cycles required). Polartec dries faster than Thinsulate.

By the way, the US Navy study proving that Thinsulate was the warmest undergarment was done in the late 1980s before Polartec was available, they compared Thinuslate to the woolly bear suits. The study also concluded that both Thinsuate and woolly bear suits were approved for Navy use. While Thinsulate may be the warmest undergarment wet, I’ve seen no quantitative (or non quantitative) comparison as to how much warmer it is than Polartec fleece. Polartec retains warmth when wet as well.

I tested both types of suits when I was shopping and decided to buy the DUI 300s, it kept me warm, and I needed less lead. In really cold water, I add additional Polartec layers. In sub 40 degree conditions, I can keep my body warm far longer than I can keep my hands warm, therefore the suit is not the limiting factor.

Ralph

 

[billseamon]

I purchased a thinsulate t-shirt and long johns from Damar when I lived back east for motorcyling in the winter. The stuff is warm. Back then the pro football were wearing it under their uniformes in the cold games. Wasn't too expensive. Don't know it they are still around, live in California, so the one day a year its cold enough to need the thinsulate, I use the car.

In California, I just wear a long sleve sweat shirt and sweat pants under a 5 mm dry suit. It's not the best, but warn enough for multiple dives at Catalina. Usually for a single beach dive, I just wear a long sleve t-shirt and shorts under my dry suit.

 

[nalfein]

I just picked up a set of Weezle Extreme undergarments, they came highly recommended to me by some deep tech diver types up here in Canada. They're made in Britain and I love them... I was out this weekend in 30 F water. We were only in for about 30 minutes, but I wasn't cold in the least, I dive a Bare trilam. They call the material 'pertex', they seem to keep folks nice and warm even when wet. I'll be a customer for life. Check them out.... I don't know how popular they are in the States.

chris

 

[Snowbear]

Most/All thinsulate garments have no stretch

Mine stretches. Must be why Diving Concepts calls it "Hyperstretch"

 

[Bob3]

"Bear Suits" and Polartec are made from very similar materials; spun polyester for the Polartec & polyproplene for the bear suits. The fiber construction/weave make a big difference in warmth & compressability, it's extremely difficult to compare materials by weight per square meter alone. It's ike comparing apples to oranges.
Numbers mean very little between different manufacturers, and mean almost nothing when comparing different materials.
Add to that different liners & a 400 from one mfgr will insulate about the same as a 300 from a different mfgr. using basically the same insulation.
The compressability of the Weezels scared me off, they can be compressed down to a fairly compact roll, they even use that as one of their selling points.
Then you have fabrics like Northern Divers Flectalon, a "mystery fiber" that's very "airy" yet compresses with enough difficulty that it almost feels "crunchy".
It's no wonder folks get confused when trying to make an undersuit choice. The best way is to take them all for a test dive under similar conditions & see how well they perform for you.

 

[CALI68]

I went with an Andy's custom made undergarment because like you I have a mixed size. I went with the AU200 (thinsulate) although it was very expensive, it fits like a glove and is warm as can be. The shell is nylon so it's water and wind resistant. Very high quality but pricey....custom made $450.40

Check it out:

http://www.andysdrysuit.com/undies.htm

 

[jonnythan]

If you require 30 pounds to sink, but your wing is 1/2 full at 10 feet, you're doing something very wrong.

Before you get in the water, you need to do the "squat and vent" to get as much air out of your suit as possible. Some people jump in the water with just their fins and drysuit to help vent all the gas out. Point is you need to wear much less weight and work on getting the air out of the suit. I have to do a sort of "dive and kick down" while exhaling when i first want to descend, but once I'm down I'm fine.

 

[WillAbbott]

If you require 30 pounds to sink, but your wing is 1/2 full at 10 feet, you're doing something very wrong.

Before you get in the water, you need to do the "squat and vent" to get as much air out of your suit as possible. Some people jump in the water with just their fins and drysuit to help vent all the gas out. Point is you need to wear much less weight and work on getting the air out of the suit. I have to do a sort of "dive and kick down" while exhaling when i first want to descend, but once I'm down I'm fine.

I do "burp" my suit, first thing after zipping up, I do the old squat and vent... then I don't add more air to it, until I need to at depth. If you've ever seen a USIA exotherm II, you'd know that they are very lofty... they are sort of like weezles, only no where near as warm, very fluffy, and very lofty, and the only thing that can fully compress them is depth.

I fully intend on dropping more weight the next time I go diving, however, I think my undergarments (3 layers of fleece, including the super lofty USIA suit) are counterproductive.