Tipping on a liveaboard

[Wookie]

:rofl2: A "heartfelt thank you" is not going pay your employee's bills. I am sure if I said Captain Frank says you would prefer a thank you to cash you would have a mutiny on your hands.

Nope, their salary, the fact that their room and board is covered, and the living wage I pay them is what pays their bills. Over half of the work we do is research, and research divers are typically grad students, and don't tip, so I pay quite well for liveaboard staff. My stewardess is reading this over my shoulder and agrees with me.

$1500 a week? That's funny. We're happy to clear $300 a week in tips, making their salary (except for the mate) exactly double that. Except on research trips, then tip is zero. If the tip is taken in credit cards, then 2.7% is deducted for the cc fee, and the balance is given to them in a check with taxes withheld. Cash tips are up to the employee to track and report.

Actually stating that a tip isn't necessary has resulted in confusion, dismay and hard feelings. It's way easier on the clients to just say "the industry standard is 10%"

 

[ams511]

Um, just so you know... the customer always pays for labor expenses. For every product or service they buy. Buy a gallon of milk? Part of what you spent pays the labor expenses of the farmer, the labor expenses of the guy who drove the truck to the store, the labor expenses of the guy who put it on the shelf, and the labor expenses of the cashier.

Whether built into the initial charge up front, or in the form of a gratuity, money that comes out of the passenger's pocket is going to pay the labor expenses of the crew. Or are you of naive belief that if tipping stopped tomorrow the cost of a liveaboard trip or day charter would not go up commensurately? (Economic reality is that your actual cost would probably go up significantly more than the amount of a typical gratuity.)

Sorry but your wrong. The market price of a good is determined by supply and demand. If there is a glut of milk on the market the farmer may not recoup his labor costs. In fact many farmers complain that they can't recover their costs because of foreign competition. In the long run some will go out of business and the supply will fall and the price will rise.

If the actual cost of the liveaboard trip increases then less people will take them. This is called the elasticity of demand. I would assume the demands for liveaboards is highly elastic given it is a non-essential good and their are plenty of substitutes. Why do you think they build in all these extra charges? To make the initial cost look cheaper so more people sign up. To me this is dishonest.

---------- Post added November 13th, 2013 at 08:20 AM ----------

Nope, their salary, the fact that their room and board is covered, and the living wage I pay them is what pays their bills. Over half of the work we do is research, and research divers are typically grad students, and don't tip, so I pay quite well for liveaboard staff. My stewardess is reading this over my shoulder and agrees with me.

$1500 a week? That's funny. We're happy to clear $300 a week in tips, making their salary (except for the mate) exactly double that. Except on research trips, then tip is zero. If the tip is taken in credit cards, then 2.7% is deducted for the cc fee, and the balance is given to them in a check with taxes withheld. Cash tips are up to the employee to track and report.

Actually stating that a tip isn't necessary has resulted in confusion, dismay and hard feelings. It's way easier on the clients to just say "the industry standard is 10%"

Is your operation and the way you conduct your business industry standard? There was a post earlier from a person making $100 a week on a liveaboard it was a long time since $100 a week was a living wage.

 

[Wookie]

Why do you think they build in all these extra charges? To make the initial cost look cheaper so more people sign up. To me this is dishonest.

I happen to agree with you, although I wouldn't say dishonest, I'd just say that the buyer has to get the whole story.

But, how do you feel about airlines? How do you feel about paying $25 a leg to get sufficient kneeroom, $50 each way for a check bag, $12.50 for internet? Now, how do you feel about Southwest, which includes all of that? Some look for the cheapest fare, some look for the best all around deal. For a 6'2" 300 pounder, I like the legroom, I don't want to try to stuff everything in the overhead, and I don't want someone telling me when I get to the airport that there is a mandatory fuel surcharge.

Boats hide this in a hundred different ways. Fuel surcharges, marine park fees, departure tax, nitrox fees, beverage fees, etc. I don't call it dishonest, but it isn't the way I run my boat or boats I go on as a customer. Most prefer the ala carte route, however, which is why boats do it.

No one tips an airline stewardess, BTW. They bring drinks and food and give funny briefings and basically take care of you as best they can on a long flight. They earn a living wage, actually, many earn quite a good wage. No one thinks to tip the stew.

 

[RJP]

Again, more proof that the ability to comprehend and utilize analogies has, at some point, been bred out of the human genome.

The point is, that labor costs are built into the price of any good or service. (Milk may be a bad example, due to farm subsidies, govt controls, etc). Yes, supply/demand may reduce the number of units sold and thus negatively impact the seller. But that changes nothing about the fact that when a consumer buys "Product X" or "Service Y" they are, without a doubt, paying some allocated portion of the labor associated with producing, delivering, and selling "Product X" or Service Y."

Now, I've never spoken with Frank's accountant, but I know Frank. He's a smart guy. And I'll bet that the way Frank prices a charter is by calculating his fixed costs (including labor costs, debt servicing, etc) and variable costs (fuel, food, consumables, etc) for the charter, adds in his desired profit margin, and calculates how much he is going to charge. So even if you don't tip a penny... you're paying a portion of the labor costs.

To suggest that having passengers tip somehow shifts a financial cost to them that would have otherwise been paid for by someone else is ludicrous.

 

[iluvtheocean]

I don't think it would be a bad idea for those liveaboards (and charters) who have trip prices posted on their websites to state "A suggested gratuity of XX% is appreciated" or whatever appropriate wordage. It doesn't mean you have to tip or tip that percentage, but does give you an idea of how much extra to budget for the trip. Many restaurants state it out bold in either the menu, a plaque on the wall near the entrance, or on the bill. It's just letting you know up front what to expect. the only ones i dislike are the ones that say xx% tip is going to be added to your bill no matter what the size of the party - those that state for large parties a tip of xx% will be added are different. But even those at least state it on the wall or in the menu so you know before you order giving you the option of agreeing with it or going elsewhere.

I've only been on 1 cruise (no liveaboards yet) - and that was Royal Caribbean for my honeymoon. They stated on the website what you could expect in regards to tips and to whom.

How Frank deals with CC & cash tips i believe is standard in the US and compliant with the laws.

 

[mruseless]

WOW, I must be a cheapo.

In Feb 2009 we flew to Australia and did a 7 day live aboard. It cost us $3,695, plus a $500 fuel surcharge. That comes out to just under $600 per day per person.
If you subtract a descent hotel room ($150) and say 3 meals at $50 per, that leaves $300 per day for diving and laying on deck.

If we gave a 20% tip based on the total cost, it would be $839 per person.
That's a lotta dough!!! On top of a lotta dough just to sale with them.

Granted the diving was greater then great. The staff was great also. But the pressure by the trip director (on the last day) to give a tip was beyond a normal sales pitch. It was down right "in your face".

I'm not so sure that the employees on the AU boat were that under paid to begin with. But I don't know for certain!!

Anyways, doesn't matter. It was a trip of a life time which I may never be able to afford again.

You didn't mention how much you actually did tip, so I don't know if you are a Cheapo or not Just kidding. I think the bottom line is that you should tip whatever you feel is appropriate. Don't think you have to tip more or less based on comments here, just do what you feel is right. I tip generously because I feel in the vast majority of cases, they have earned it.

If you are parsing the cost, keep in mind that while you are "diving and laying on deck", the crew is still working, doing maintenance, keeping safety logs and other paperwork, refilling tanks, fixing up the rooms, cleaning, cooking, processing video, etc. Even more tasks are waiting once you get off the boat including scrubdown and restocking. Typically the crew is up an hour before me (and I'm an early riser), and to bed late. 16 hour days are not uncommon.

To some extent may matter what country owns/operates the charter and where it is located. In places where tipping is the norm, the crew's wages are most likely smaller. But this is speculation on my part since I've never worked on one of these charters.

 

[beaverdivers]

I tried searching for the answer on scubaboard under tip, tips, tips liveaboard and tipping and only got $5-$10 per tank on regular 2 tank dive boats. My question is when you are on a 10 day liveaboard that is costing around $1,000 per day per couple with 3-5 dives per day, What is the reasonable amount to tip for normal service? I've seen on the liveaboard websites of various ships the amount of $50-$100 per day per couple or the amount you would tip in a restaurant for a meal of 10% to 20%. So if you were on a 10 day cruise costing $10,000 for a couple the range seems to be from the low of $50/day or $500 for a couple to $2,000 or $200 per day for a couple based on 20% of the trip cost. There also seems to be areas of the world where the divers do not tip at all. I'd appreciate any thoughts or direction to a thread that answers my question. Thank you in advance

Good question. Tipping always seems to be a difficult issue.

For US oriented live-aboards, around 10% seems to be the norm. For other live-aboards, 100 euros for a 13 night trip seems to be the norm.

I have been at land based operations with 50 local employees in the indo pacific that did not want you to tip. The idea was that giving a person that makes a few dollars a day a ten dollar tip disrupts the scale of economics. ( The owner actually scolded me for tipping. )

On our group trips, I am always asked " What is the appropriate amount to tip? "

In researching our trips, this question is one that I try to find a reasonable answer. It is always a challenging issue.

 

[TMHeimer]

Side note: The Soviets had it right--"it's illegal to tip". But if you don't tip that comrade you better look out.

 

[LaMissJude]

A few things: Staff are never underpaid. A employee's wages are determined by market conditions, if the dive op is cheap they can work for another one. What tipping is doing is shifting the labor expense from the operator to the client.

The staff that you are tipping are employees of the operator and are paid by them as such. Yes, I know that there will be some people that come back and say that the staff are paid poorly but quite often the pay is relevant to the local cost of living, not to the cost of living in the USA.

in the diving industry, that's not a secret that staff are often underpaid and it's not a legend too!

I include the boat crew as well; for example, where I've worked in the Maldives, often the diving boat is rent to a boat company for a price that include the boat crew. The boat company is paying the boat crew, not the dive centre.
And as soon as they come from countries such as Bengladesh, they getting paid ridiculously low (US$150 a month, accommodation and food is provided, and they send almost everything to their family in their home country.) They work stupid hours sometimes, specially if it's the resort that is renting the boat from the boat company, then renting it to the dive centre. These guys will also work at night loading and unloading supply boats.
Some might say it's not their problem. Well, without these guys, diving wouldn't be possible overhere so...
My first job as a DM, I was getting paid 300euros per month in Egypt, and my rent was 350euros per month. I was not living alone, otherwise, I don't know how I would have done it. Yes I left, but at the time, that was a job and I needed a job.
And these salaries are not relevant to the local cost of living, and they are not the only one I could talk about but I would write a novel if I would...

What tipping is doing is shifting the labor expense from the operator to the client.

Also, if the staff are underpaid, is that not the responsibility of the operator, not the customer, to be corrected?

I lost count about how many times, whether is was a 5 star resort or a backpacker place, I heard the prices for diving were too expensive or if it was possible to have a discount.
Let's add at least 10% on every existing price for diving see how it works. Everybody well get paid better, but will the divers be ready to pay more money?

Yes, I agree that tipping should be at the discretion of the guests, I'm not saying it's mandatory. It's always appreciated though .

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Let's add at least 10% on every existing price for diving see how it works. Everybody well get paid better, but will the divers be ready to pay more money?

I pray for the day when I can book a dive trip--even a day boat--that says "10% service charge included that is shared equally among the staff--no additional gratuity is requested or permitted." It would reduce diver anxiety and avoid dozens of threads on SB. Who's with me on this?