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Thalassamania:
Having a "C" card means that the instructor certifies that you have MASTERED mask clearing at least. I'd complain to his shop and his agency.

Which is also why i left the last 2 lines in that post..
There are some skills you are required to be proficient with in order to pass the class, and mask clearing (full and half), CESA, hovering and certain other tasks are are on that list..
And yeah, the instructor did seem to go too easy on people, but that still dont remove the fact that you should practice your skills even after you have the c-card..
 
Originally Posted by Thalassamania
Having a "C" card means that the instructor certifies that you have MASTERED mask clearing at least. I'd complain to his shop and his agency.
Well, it's been long enough ago that I'm not going to bother. I have spent several hours in the pool on it, and can do it reasonably happily while breathing through a snorkel at about a six inch depth in water too deep to stand in, so I think I'm as far as I can get until I get into the ocean with a reg (in two weeks, I think). But I should have had to do that before getting a c-card.

As for the hovering, I could hover on my back for a little while and that was apparently good enough to pass.

I agree that you should practice skills after an OW class but I believe that there should be a baseline of competence before being certified.
 
ElGuano:
I guess my response to this is whether diving itself has changed from when it was back in the old days. Did the same number or proportion of people get into it just to enjoy a few dives on vacation, or were they more serious about engaging in a long-term hobby?

There's also some agreement that modern equipment is better at keeping newbie divers alive (alt. second stages, pony tanks, etc.). The same might be said for diving locations/operations (numerous operations with guides/DMs, established, safe dive locations without major hazards).

In essence, my belief is that diving has become much "safer" and more accessible than in the days of Cousteau (or perhaps even more recently), and as such certification programs have adapted to suit the bell curve--much more recreation, much less exploration.


Diving in itself has not changed. The core techniques are still as they hwere 25-30 years ago.

The teaching of diving has changed, and I have been around as an instructor to see the changes.

I do not feel that it has become safer.

The equipment HAS improved. It is safer. But it is not the equipment as such that keeps the diver alive, but his ability to cope with situations.

Neither have diving operations changed, there are still now as then, good professional operation as there are bad. There are parts of the world, like europe, that the diving industry, has been put into a legal framework to ENSURE, an overall service and safety. This does not mean that there are no unscrupolous operations around. It simply means that there is a form of checks and balances, like industry inspectors, to help weed these operations to ship up or close down.

I feel that instruction has become less of a discipline and more about making money.

As was said, when the instructor certifies you he is in effect saying that you have reached MASTERY in the required skills at that level. Often this is not so. So that a person that has NOT mastered something as basic as mask removal, a core value skill, is still certified. Often he will go onto more advanced courses, allowing greater depth ranges, with that specific problem not dealt with.

I do not have your take that the general opinion is that diving HAS become safer. It is easier, but not safer. How can that be?
The enviorment is still as alien and potentially dangerous as it was 60 years ago, yet in training, trainees are spending less time underwater. AND, because of time constrains, in some instances being certified without MASTERY.

There are two basic differences between then and now.

Today, there is neither the, realisation, nor is it being thought, that the sea is an alien potentially dangerous enviorment that should be treated with alot of respect. So that a diver that trains in the clear warm waters of the Mediteranean of or the Cayman, is now qualified to dive in the cold dark silty waters of some Canadian lake.

In the second instance they are spending less time In the water, on courses. So taht, because it is all to the discretion of the instructor, all the confined sessions in the OW can be done within a day. Where is the ratio of repetion needed for Mastery of skills.

Over the last 20 years divers have been in incidents or fatalities for the same reasons. Diving beyond the limits of their experience, running out of air, and buddy seperation. They are still drowning at the surface or underwater, because they do not drop the weightbelt. I really beleive that if divers are still dying for the same reasons they did then, even though efforts have been nade to direct training towards these problems, is an indication that nothing has really changed. Except that maybe there are more divers out there that are less prepared to deal with the enviorment.
 
ElGuano[QUOTE:
My instructor said the other major hang-up in cert classes is regulator recovery (apparently some people have a death grip on it), but to me, holding your breath underwater is a heck of a lot more natural than breathing


socal619:
Don't you remember, you're not supposed to hold your breath underwater. Blow bubbles :D

No need to do either. Why be without a reg while you look for one when you have another?
 
efficientwanderer:
Well, it's been long enough ago that I'm not going to bother. I have spent several hours in the pool on it, and can do it reasonably happily while breathing through a snorkel at about a six inch depth in water too deep to stand in, so I think I'm as far as I can get until I get into the ocean with a reg (in two weeks, I think). But I should have had to do that before getting a c-card.

As for the hovering, I could hover on my back for a little while and that was apparently good enough to pass.

I agree that you should practice skills after an OW class but I believe that there should be a baseline of competence before being certified.
Print out this post and either try it on your own in a pool, or give it to your instructor and try it with him. It has always worked with my students.

ElGuano:
...

I feel the same way you do regarding computers and electronics. Back in the day, you couldn't even start a program without knowing your way around a command line, or being able to crack open the case and getting your hands dirty (more like cut). Now, you buy a system from Walmart, follow a color fold-out to plug in 3 cables, and you're up and online, for better or worse. Sure, the old-timers learned in a trial by fire and during the same point in their education could have run circles around what a lot of people today "know" about PCs, but computers got better, more useful, and more popular, and today's level knowledge is adequate to suit the needs of most of today's users (clicking a mouse and playing a game, rather than writing and compiling your own).
The ultimate problem with "misusing" a computer is not being in fear of your life, injuring yourself or drowning. But I did read somewhere that 80% of home computer users are suffering some significant problem that they don't know how to fix and are not willing to pay to have fixed but have adapted to and just live with. What I see in diving today is much the same, only scarier.
 
Discussion like this one always make me grateful that circumstances led me to the instructor I had for my OW.Small operation at the quarry, not a major dive shop. I asked him when I first started, "How long will lessons take" and his aswer was, " As long as it takes. I will certify you when you are ready." All my dives were in the quarry and not a pool. He stressed saftey, taught me shore entry and giant stride entries....equipment retrieval, how to cope with emergency situations, and to never, ever be afraid or ashamed to call a dive for ANY reason in any cincumstances. He then reminded me that my OW was mostly a licence to "learn" and to continue to practice my skills and dive with more experienced divers any chance I have. When I am at the quarry he continues to monitor anything I am doing that he thinks I could improve on.
Ok that is my 2 cents
 
skybird:
Discussion like this one always make me grateful that circumstances led me to the instructor I ... When I am at the quarry he continues to monitor anything I am doing that he thinks I could improve on.
Ok that is my 2 cents
I wish everyone got that kind of training and mentoring.

I feel that instruction has become less of a discipline and more about making money.

Tonio Anastasi:
Diving in itself has not changed. The core techniques are still as they were 25-30 years ago.

The teaching of diving has changed, and I have been around as an instructor to see the changes.

I do not feel that it has become safer. … I feel that instruction has become less of a discipline and more about making money.

As was said, when the instructor certifies you he is in effect saying that you have reached MASTERY in the required skills at that level. Often this is not so. So that a person that has NOT mastered something as basic as mask removal, a core value skill, is still certified. Often he will go onto more advanced courses, allowing greater depth ranges, with that specific problem not dealt with.

I do not have your take that the general opinion is that diving HAS become safer. It is easier, but not safer. How can that be?

The environment is still as alien and potentially dangerous as it was 60 years ago, yet in training, trainees are spending less time underwater. AND, because of time constrains, in some instances being certified without MASTERY.

There are two basic differences between then and now.

Today, there is neither the, realization, nor is it being thought, that the sea is an alien potentially dangerous environment that should be treated with a lot of respect. So that a diver that trains in the clear warm waters of the Mediterranean of or the Cayman, is now qualified to dive in the cold dark silty waters of some Canadian lake.

In the second instance they are spending less time In the water, on courses. So that, because it is all to the discretion of the instructor, all the confined sessions in the OW can be done within a day. Where is the ratio of repetition needed for Mastery of skills.
If I recall correctly, Glen Egstrom of UCLA did some studies of complex skill training in diving and found the you need a minimum of 17 repetitions to be able to expect proper performance 95% of the time.
Tonio Anastasi:
Over the last 20 years divers have been in incidents or fatalities for the same reasons. Diving beyond the limits of their experience, running out of air, and buddy separation. They are still drowning at the surface or underwater, because they do not drop the weight belt. I really believe that if divers are still dying for the same reasons they did then, even though efforts have been made to direct training towards these problems, is an indication that nothing has really changed. Except that maybe there are more divers out there that are less prepared to deal with the environment.
That’s right.
 
Thalassamania:
Print out this post and either try it on your own in a pool, or give it to your instructor and try it with him. It has always worked with my students.

The ultimate problem with "misusing" a computer is not being in fear of your life, injuring yourself or drowning. But I did read somewhere that 80% of home computer users are suffering some significant problem that they don't know how to fix and are not willing to pay to have fixed but have adapted to and just live with. What I see in diving today is much the same, only scarier.

I knew that distinction would come up, and it certainly is a valid one. But if you misuse your computer, you stand a chance of losing your credit, your identity, your job, and your livelihood, none of which should be taken lightly. Add to that the common belief (near-reality) that you MUST have some minimum level of computer skills to succeed in today's world, and it strikes me as a bit odd that so many people know so little (it always amazes me when people say "Where's that one program I use? You know, it's the third icon on the screen. No, I don't know what the icon looked like, or what the caption was underneath it. I always just clicked on the third icon down." :shakehead)

Scuba certification certainly could be more rigorous. I took my training seriously, and though I definitely need more in-water practice, I feel I know my limits and won't go beyond them. One guy in my class still didn't know how to assemble his gear in his OW dive, didn't know the hand signals, and was so clueless in the water that he actually *fought* against the instructor in the first OW drill where all he had to do was respond to an OOA by handing over his octo (didn't want to give it up, I guess). He was fine with his personal water skills, mask clearing, buoyancy, etc., just didn't learn any procedures/rules/theory, etc. He was a dad on vacation with his family, so I can't imagine he was paying much attention to the reading, either.

I don't know if the student I just mentioned got certified (we still had 3 dives to go), but with that lack of practice/knowledge he probably shouldn't be. If he was, hopefully he has the plain common sense to know where he stands skill-wise and won't go off diving without an experience--I'd fear for him (and more for whoever happens to be his buddy).
 
Thanks for the link, Thalassamania. I will give that a try next time I'm at the pool. And skybird, your instructor sounds fantastic! I should have done a bit more research with mine, unfortunately.
 

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