To those considering an OW class...

[Thalassamania]

So no GUE trained diver has ever died while diving? I find that hard to believe.

That’s not what I said and you can believe anything that you want.

Increasing the certification time to 100 hours is excessive and would probably kill the sport. I know that I would never be diving if I had to go through a 100 hour course. I would get bored to death, and I don't have 100 hours of free time. I also find that hard to believe.

That is the length of the courses that the science community has been running since 1952. No one has ever died of boredom (or of any other cause for that matter, a claim that the 20 hour wonder courses can't make). But once again, you can believe anything that you want. You must be very important if you can't spare 100 hours for training, we had a university Vice President you was ablt to find the time.

A pilot's license takes 35 hours. Are you saying that diving is three times as hard? Or that there is three times the amount of information to learn?

When I learned to fly I got about 150 hours of instruction, which served me very well. My Dad and my uncles (all of whom where pilots during WWII and flight instructors during Korea) thought that the program that I was in was the right way to go.

I got my certification in about 20 hours total. Am I going to die while diving at 60ft because I didn't practice drills 20+ times? Probably not. Will practicing 20 times do any better than practicing something 5 times, as long as I get it? .

When you discover the writings of Glen Egstrom you will learn that it takes a minimum of 17 repetitions of moderately complex skills to have 95% confidence that they will be correctly performed by students.

It's great that going through a 100 hour DIR-F course makes you feel like a better diver. But I really don't need to be a DIR-F diver, or go through 100 hours of certification time, to do the kind of recreational diving that I like to do. So stop trying to force that **** on me (even though I'm already certified, so even if you did make 100hr classes mandatory; it wouldn't affect me. But I digress) .

When you discover the writings of Glen Egstrom you will learn that it takes a minimum of 17 repetitions of moderately complex skills to have 95% confidence that they will be correctly performed by students. Till you discover that I hope that you do not have the opportunity to discover where your skills are lacking. BTW, I made no mention of 100 hours DIR-F courses, I have no idea if there is such a thing. I am not a GUE diver or Instructor, but I have seen their product and it is a program that works.

My dad and three of my uncles were all certified back in the 70s when 100 hour OW-AOW-Rescue-All-in-one classes were the norm, along with hard physical challenges (long swims/tread water) that some divers here are calling for. They all thought that 100 hour certification classes were way too long. 3/4 were instructors. None of them had any problem with me taking a two day class.

Perhaps they don’t care for you as much as you think, perhaps they have no idea of what they’re talking about, I don’t know.

But, I will end this by saying that everybody is different. Some people need 20 hours to get down the basics; others need 50 hours. Some may need 100 hours to master the fundamentals; others may need 150 hours. Instructors need to spend more time with people who aren't ready. Take a private pool session or something. Don't send people out once they hit the magic x hour mark.

The 100 hour mark is one that has been developed and tested over the course of 50 odd years by the people who invented diving and diver training. That is their consensus. Feel free to differ.

 

[jbd]

A pilot's license takes 35 hours.

That is a FAA stipulated minimum. IIRC the average time for certification is between 60 and 65 hours.

 

[beach89]

That’s not what I said and you can believe anything that you want.

You said that you have never seen non-safe diving practices by a GUE trained diver. People don't die because they were diving safely. There's always some mistake. GUE divers may be a lot safer(they have to be), but they still make errors.

That is the length of the courses that the science community has been running since 1952. No one has ever died of boredom (or of any other cause for that matter, a claim that the 20 hour wonder courses can't make). But once again, you can believe anything that you want. You must be very important if you can't spare 100 hours for training, we had a university Vice President you was ablt to find the time.

Not all divers are professional divers. And believe me, if I had to repeat skills 17 times, then I would get really bored. I learn fast. Hell, I was asleep less than fifteen minutes during the course of eight 3 hour classes. I passed the end exam without getting one wrong. And I could probably spare 100 hours of free time, but not without cutting out a lot of other things that I do. Which I wouldn't do.

When I learned to fly I got about 150 hours of instruction, which served me very well. My Dad and my uncles (all of whom where pilots during WWII and flight instructors during Korea) thought that the program that I was in was the right way to go.

Ok. So do you think the scuba diving is 2/3s as hard as learning to fly?

When you discover the writings of Glen Egstrom you will learn that it takes a minimum of 17 repetitions of moderately complex skills to have 95% confidence that they will be correctly performed by students.

When you discover the writings of Glen Egstrom you will learn that it takes a minimum of 17 repetitions of moderately complex skills to have 95% confidence that they will be correctly performed by students. Till you discover that I hope that you do not have the opportunity to discover where your skills are lacking. BTW, I made no mention of 100 hours DIR-F courses, I have no idea if there is such a thing. I am not a GUE diver or Instructor, but I have seen their product and it is a program that works.

Deja vu? I can learn things in a lot less than 17 repetitions. And I don't consider most of the skills in scuba moderately challenging. Maybe buoyancy control. I guess it's pretty obvious that I'm not a GUE diver either, considering I thought they had a course that didn't exist.

Perhaps they don’t care for you as much as you think, perhaps they have no idea of what they’re talking about, I don’t know.

It's not the latter, so I guess it's the former. Or maybe a long class isn't needed.

The 100 hour mark is one that has been developed and tested over the course of 50 odd years by the people who invented diving and diver training. That is their consensus. Feel free to differ.

If it's their consensus, then why isn't it the standard?

 

[jbd]

And believe me, if I had to repeat skills 17 times, then I would get really bored.

That might all depend on how you were asked to repeat the skill.

 

[Thalassamania]

You said that you have never seen non-safe diving practices by a GUE trained diver. People don't die because they were diving safely. There's always some mistake. GUE divers may be a lot safer(they have to be), but they still make errors.

What I said is that I’ve NEVER SEEN, nothing more, nothing less.

Not all divers are professional divers.

Neither are the scientists that I train.

And believe me, if I had to repeat skills 17 times, then I would get really bored. I learn fast. Hell, I was asleep less than fifteen minutes during the course of eight 3 hour classes. I passed the end exam without getting one wrong. And I could probably spare 100 hours of free time, but not without cutting out a lot of other things that I do. Which I wouldn't do.

Well, if you’re so smart why’s your attention span so short?

Deja vu? I can learn things in a lot less than 17 repetitions. And I don't consider most of the skills in scuba moderately challenging.

Perhaps that’s because you really don’t know what it take to do things properly. Or perhaps your just a genius.

If it's their consensus, then why isn't it the standard?

Within the academic commuinty it is. With respect to thre recreational community, since you're know it all, why don’t you tell us?

 

[fisherdvm]

Thal, life isn't fun, if there is no risk. If climbing Mt. Everest is as risky as walking through downtown Detroit, we'd have alot less people climbing her. Oops, bad example. I mean walking through a city park.

If good quality diving instruction equal minimal to no diving risk, then why would you want to dive? Heck, it is more fun to dive, when you know you might die from getting the bends, pulmonary emboli, running out of air, etc... Then you have cool stories to tell you kids about - how you got the twitch in your right eye, and a toe drag in your left feet. Then you can tell them, what life is really like, in a compression chamber for 2 weeks! And free food - courtersy of DAN.

Geez.... You are making it sounds like, diving is safe enough even for sissies to do! REAL men are certified by PADI. DIR is for sissies.

 

[ScubaKris]

You can't fight city hall!

I was certified in 74,...it was long and hard,... a lot like going through rescue for your open water. Back then there basically was only open water and instructor. Now you can have several cert s with your open water, i.e. equip sp, Nitrox.

Basic open water is basic open water, give you the min to dive safely with an experienced diver.

Many agencies require divers to have 20 dives and 5 specialties to get an advanced, others will do for you the weekend after they certified you for open water. People want to be cheap and say they are advanced with as few as 9 dives and never being out of 20 feet of water, unless one of there advanced dives was a deep dive.

In the 80's I saw many a dead diver pulled out of Hawaii sites, they were diving an advanced site, hey they had anadvanced cert. This is not what it means, it means having the advanced skills and knowledge to dive the advanced site

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, life isn't fun, if there is no risk. If climbing Mt. Everest is as risky as walking through downtown Detroit, we'd have alot less people climbing her. Oops, bad example. I mean walking through a city park.

If good quality diving instruction equal minimal to no diving risk, then why would you want to dive?

I have spent my entire professional career reducing risk to a level that is acceptable to university administration, I am very risk adverse. I'd suggest that if it is the risk you enjoy, take up Russian Roulette, at least the odd are predictable (please do not use an automatic, the odds approach unity and we'd miss your polls).

Heck, it is more fun to dive, when you know you might die from getting the bends, pulmonary emboli, running out of air, etc... Then you have cool stories to tell you kids about - how you got the twitch in your right eye, and a toe drag in your left feet. Then you can tell them, what life is really like, in a compression chamber for 2 weeks! And free food - courtersy of DAN.

Geez.... You are making it sounds like, diving is safe enough even for sissies to do! REAL men are certified by PADI. DIR is for sissies.

 

[Eskasi]

I will freely admit that I did not ready EVERY post here. However, I have some ideas....

I do agree that in it's current state, the OW class simply does not provide a diver with enough experience to dive competently. I can't imagine 2 novice divers feeling invincible and with cash to spare, going out shore diving on their own.

What about a probationary dive system? Drivers have to go on probation before getting their license...so why not here? Call it at least 10 logged dives (within 6 months) accompanied by a DM at least and signed off by him/her? Heck, probationary divers could be charged an extra few bucks during these dives (and Padi and all pros involved would be happy to then enforce this). The probationary dives could be limited to no more than 5 people to each dive.

To the students, it would seem like they already "have" their license but they would in truth be still learning and monitored.

Everyone is then happy.

 

[CJ Waid]

Wow, this thread is still alive...

In My opinion Open Water (PADI) is just fine, it is perfect for learning how to use scuba gear, and basic skills that divers should know.

This isn't rocket science, it is very simple stuff, now if someone is not as skilled a diver as they feel they should be once completing OW, then they should consider going on dives with divemasters, or they should continue on to Advanced Open Water to further their training (I think it is really more about getting them to do some confidence dives with an instructor, who can help them with other deficiencies while they are hanging out during the AOW course.

Advanced Open Water isn't suppose to make you an advanced diver, only diving can do that, AOW is to ADVANCE you forward a little beyond basic OW skills, it is also a good chance for an instructor to work with less skilled divers.

Rescue is for people that believe that they will actually have the mental capacity to help someone if trouble arises, not everyone who has the training would help someone, a lot of people would freeze up...

but I don't see the difference between PADI charging individually for these various levels or other agencies charging for one big package, same thing it is just how you market it, and diving isn't something that is so risky that you need to be GI joe to do it, it is a leisure activity.

If someone isn't competant enough to handle diving in OW after taking OW, then the instructor should have never completed their temporary card... That is on the individual instructor, NOT the agency.