Today's OW Course

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I think it is dangerous to make statements in public that instructors are not meeting standards or that the standards are too low to be safe.

Dangerous? Why? Should the posters in this forum be afraid of being sued? The assertions that I have seen so far in this thread are not libellous. Should anyone claim that they are, that individual seems to be want to stifle a healthy discussion.

BTW, I have read over the posts and have not seen anyone comment that "instructors are not meeting standards." Perhaps someone can point such a comment out to me. :shakehead:
 
I dunno. More requirements, restrictions is what we don't want. Diving is maybe one of the last areas where it is basically unregulated. Divers must take responsibility, as they know it is an activity which can lead to death if not careful. But hey, I've seen people swimming on the panhandle in the Gulf of Mexico in conditions where even I wouldn't venture in-- and their young kids, too. People must use reason as to whether to make the dive or not.

Sorry too late for that.

Started with the "you can't dive without a buddy",
....then somehow became "it was the buddy's fault"
...and now is pretty much "the captain and every diver on the boat should have stopped me from doing something stupid"
 
Well, when I completed my OW certification class, I had never successfully performed a descent (with or without reference) without hanging onto my instructor's BC. The one time I tried it, I got lost and ended up on my back on the bottom all alone. I passed the class and got my OW cert. I certainly HOPE they did it because they figured they'd be able to talk me into AOW immediately (which they did, because I'm not entirely stupid).

I don't know whether they allowed me to finish with inadequate skills so they could sell me AOW, or whether they didn't worry about my inadequate skills because they knew I was going to do AOW and they could fix them (which they didn't, and in fact made no effort to do so), or whether they just didn't care (which I think is the answer, and find that chilling).

My husband believes that they passed me because they were sure I wasn't going to go off and do anything rash and stupid. But I managed a number of uncontrolled ascents over the next couple of months (including one from 70 feet) until I acquired a mentor who patient began to help me fill in the holes in my education. This is why I am such a strong believer in the absolute necessity of mentoring in this sport; too many divers are turned loose with marginal or simply inadequate skills, and they go out with enthusiasm and eventually give up because they got badly frightened, or because it just isn't fun when you aren't under control.

I bless the people who taught me to have control of my position, my momentum, my buoyancy, and myself. They kept me a diver. My mainstream classes really did little or nothing to accomplish this.
 
:)

I did by Basic OWD with ACUC and I can't say enough about how thorough the training was. One participant in the course was having great difficulty completing the 75 foot underwater swim (with fins) followed by (without taking a breath) diving to the bottom and putting on his scuba gear. He complained bitterly that his girlfriend got certified in only a weekend and "didn't have to do any of this $h!+." Needless to say, the girlfriend wasn't certified through ACUC.

Thanks mpetryk. ACUC is among the few certification organizations that has not appreciably dropped its standards over the years (although your Instructor let you use fins for your exercise). :)

It surprises me how many people have flocked to PADI courses because they can have a quicker path to certification. Don't get me wrong, PADI has done alot for the diving industry and many PADI Instructors hold to a higher standard. PADI has however made a smart business choice, while other organizations like LAC, BSAC and ACUC have held the line on more rigid standards.
 
I think it is dangerous to make statements in public that instructors are not meeting standards or that the standards are too low to be safe.

What would be dangerous is if "instructors are not meeting standards or that the standards are too low to be safe." Asking the question is never dangerous; in-fact diver certification bodies should be asking this question periodically.
 
mpetryk:
87% of deaths occurred on the first day of diving, and most of these dives were from a charter boat.

Simple solution is to skip the first day of diving and stay off charter boats. OK, so that's silly, but no more silly than "More years of diving did not seem to improve your odds of survival." Compare apples to apples.


SailNaked:
I think it is dangerous to make statements in public that instructors are not meeting standards or that the standards are too low to be safe.

I think it's dangerous to not make statements like that when they are true. I think instructors almost always try not to violate standards. I also think those standards, for some agencies, are so low they are not safe standards to follow.
 
BSAChave held the line on more rigid standards.

Really? Do you have any idea about the complete lack of oversight for training within a club environment and how much variation in the quality of instruction this allows for?
It's about the least rigid agency i can think of.

All of the stats are completely useless without knowing the actual number of dives completed. You can't break down by agency, by qualfiication level, by boat or shore or anything at all without knowing a total number of dives.
 
TS&M Quote:
Well, when I completed my OW certification class, I had never successfully performed a descent (with or without reference) without hanging onto my instructor's BC. The one time I tried it, I got lost and ended up on my back on the bottom all alone. I passed the class and got my OW cert. I certainly HOPE they did it because they figured they'd be able to talk me into AOW immediately (which they did, because I'm not entirely stupid).

Although I have never dived with you, I would not hesitate. You make thoughtful and informative posts and I respect your opinion, but my instructor would not have given you your C-Card if you had been in that situation. But then, you would never have been in that situation with my instructor. You would not have been able to go into open water unless you could demonstrate all the skills necessary in a confined environment. If what you say is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, you were put into open water way too early and you were not a safe diver when you received your OW. Shame on your instructor.
 
There has been much discussion on other threads about OW course training standards. Over the years, I have seen many training agencies lower their standards. Although I find this very disappointing, it has been pointed-out that these changes have had little affect on the safety of new divers. The accident rates apparently haven't increased.

There is concern that some Instructors tend to certify divers without insuring that even the minimums have been met. It would seem that some LDS push through their students as a form of revenue generation and try to get them back to "complete their training," by offering Advanced courses.

How do you see the current situation when it comes to diver OW certification?

The same thing goes for Instructor standards, many Agencies have decreased these standards over the years. How would increased standards for Instructor certification affect the industry?

First off, I don't think accident rates are necessarily the best metric ... because although it's incontrovertible that standards have lowered over the years, modern equipment has also made scuba diving a much more "forgiving' activity.

But what about damage to dive sites, tightening regulations on scuba activity, and an overall "nanny" mentality that is becoming more pervasive every passing year? Are those really desireable? Why are they like that? Is it an indication that, perhaps, we're trying to address an overall lack of skills with other, offsetting remedies? I think so.

Basically what's happened with dive instruction is that it's become "modularized" ... what used to be covered in one class is now covered in three or four. But there's no requirement (and in some cases little incentive) to take anything beyond the entry level class ... and in most cases, that class simply doesn't provide enough skills and information to allow a diver to be independent of supervision. So the majority of divers are really only getting a tiny portion of the training that they were once offered in a more encompassing class.

I think that having agencies promote scuba training is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it offers the advantages of standardization ... at least to a degree. On the other hand, you now have to balance the need for quality against the need for turning a profit ... and the motivation in any company is to reduce costs in order to increase profits. In the case of scuba training, reducing costs means offering less or finding more efficient ways to present the same. There's a bit of both going on ... with its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

The incentive to sell classes has had another side-effect ... instructors who are well-versed in agency requirements, but with little real-world context in which to apply them. This has the effect of producing "checklist" training, where the student is required only to perform the skills (usually while kneeling on the bottom or on a platform) without any real degree of proficiency, and with little or no opportunity to apply the skill in a real-world diving situation. That tends to produce divers who are insecure and dependent ... in other words, your basic dog-paddling, bicycling, vertically-oriented Cozumel vacation diver ... the sort that has to kneel on the bottom in order to take a compass reading or clear a mask, and relies on a divemaster to plan and lead their dives and take care of any problems that may occur while they are diving. And although some of these divers will not improve substantially over their entire diving lifetimes, the vast majority also won't ever experience anything remotely like a life-threatening incident ... most vacation diving is in very forgiving environments. However, there are no statistics on how many of these people end up with ear or other minor barotrauma problems or suffer minor DCS hits that would have never occurred if they had better training and technique.

The REAL issue ... with both instructors and divers in general ... is that we tend to view ourselves as more skilled than we actually are. And as long as the dive goes according to plan, we never really have an opportunity to test our self-image ... because diving is extremely simple and safe when everything goes right. It's when things don't go according to plan ... things like stress, a leaking mask or a free-flowing regulator leads to poor decisions ... that we suddenly realize that our training didn't really prepare us as well as we thought it did. This is where most accidents occur ... and unfortunately, most I've been able to get reliable information about appeared to have been completely preventable with appropriate training and skills ... and the context to make good decisions. But again, those instances are rare, in comparison to the total number of dives done each year.

Perhaps a better metric would be to investigate the reasons why so many divers tend to drop out of the activity shortly after receiving their initial OW training. Is it ... as one CD once told me ... because they learned just enough to scare the crap outta themselves? I tend to think that might be a plausible explanation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
How do you see the current situation when it comes to diver OW certification?

I "went pro" in 2002 and I was certified in 1984. Between 1984 and 2002 I noticed no significant differences in the way I was trained as opposed to how it is being done today.

Save:

1) a lot has been learned about deco theory, ascent rates, safety stops etc. which was not given much treatment in 1984 but was given thorough treatment anno 2002

2) The octopus had become ubiquitous in 2002 and buddy breathing was taking a back seat to other options in terms of AAS ascent strategies

3) The AOW course (which isn't the subject of this thread but I'll mention it anyway) has been completely altered from a "diving" course to a "try something new" experience. This is relevant to the OW course because the AOW course can hardly be seen as "compensation" for poor OW training anymore. One possible exception to this is the PPB section, which we didn't have in 1984 and is really part of the OW course that most instructors delay (too late) to AOW now. This I find unfortunate.

For the rest, OW was a decent intro course in 1984 and it's a decent intro course in 2009. I've been told that the "big" changes were made before 1984 but let's get real. 1984 was 25 years ago. At some point we have to stop moaning about what they changed 25 years ago and focus on making the best of what we have now.

As for accidents. I agree with Walter. Accident statistics are lies. They are simple calculations of the number of accidents per year divided by the number of certified divers. The fact that it's dropping year-on-year only says to me that there is an ever-increasing number of certified divers who don't dive. Nothing more can be concluded from that statistic than this.

Do I believe diving is safer now than it was 25 years ago? No. Absolutely, definitely, positively NO! It's all lies from marketing people.

Do I think diving is dangerous? No. It has a reputation for being a risky sport but I don't believe it is if people get relatively solid training and stick to their comfort zone.

Can safety be improved? Yes but not without driving up costs. You can't increase quality in most cases without either spending more time and/or more money.... Do clients want this? Some of them. The popularity of courses like GUE fundamentals will attest to that. It's unfortunate that the main stream agencies don't play into this market.....

R..
 
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