Two Day Certification Course (PADI) ?

[DiverBuoy]

_baenglish73 wrote________
diving should be instinctive
_______________________

Some things in diving should be instinctive yes. But to clarify, it is true that some divers (who have unfortunately died) may infact after post analysis, have relied too heavily on instinctive diving - rather than diving in the moment with all their faculties bearing down on the problem at hand - thinking on their feet so to speak.
Please to all you noobies out there - never be lulled into a false sense of security in the underwater world - you MUST be a thinking person underwater at all times. Never stop thinking - ever! Thinking and Diving Do Mix.

 

[MHK]

One of the other points of major concern to me that I haven't seen addressed at all in this thread, and that can simply not be seriously considered in a 2 day class, is the notion of team protocols. I've been involved with alot of classes in my days, and no matter how skilled or comfortable in the water a diver is, or how quickly a diver can "learn" the skills required such as mask R&R's or Reg R&R's, or OOA with ascents or valve drills.. Even accepting the hypothetical that someone could be that skilled in two days worth of classes, I don't see how anyone could seriously believe that in addition to everything that is thrown at you during OW classes, that 2 days allows for sufficient time to build a team. One of the things that has striked me about this thread is alot of references to individual divers, I've yet to see a mention of the importance of team.

Please don't turn this into the usual solo diving thread, because I suspect that even the most ardent supporters of solo diving would agree that a new open water diver shouldn't be diving solo, so therefore the concept of team needs to be practiced and discussed and I just don't see the time for it in a 2 day class..

Rather then those of us that disagree with the 2 day class continuing to defend our position I'd be curious of any instructor out there that teaches the 2 day classes would be willing to share the schedule with us..

Thanks

 

[MechDiver]

MHK once bubbled...

One of the things that has striked me about this thread is alot of references to individual divers, I've yet to see a mention of the importance of team.

And, in reality and outside of GUE, I don't think you will. Not that it isn't a good thing, but how many OW divers always dive with a "team"? I'd say very few. Therefore you have to relearn the whole thing everytime you change buddies. The team concept, IMO, does not have the impact in recreational diving that it does in tech diving and is one of the main reasons I doubt you'll ever see it in an OW class. Time and money being the other reasons...

MD

 

[TCDiver1]

Walter once bubbled...
gedunk,

I never said everyone learns in the same way. I also never said everyone has the same retention capability.

The long term/short term memory point is not valid for that extremely small percentage of folks who were lucky enough to be born with eidetic memory. For the rest of us, it is valid. Personally, I've never met anyone with such a memory and I've certainly never trained one.

Eidetic? Is that like "photographic memory?" Thanks for the vocabulary expansion but this is what you said:

"Even if they do learn all the skills & material (not something I'm willing to conceed) they will not retain what they've learned."

To me, will not retain, has a rather clear meaning.

 

[MechDiver]

Walter once bubbled...
[B
Just trying to save lives.
[/B]

Nonsense Walter. Contrary to your opinion, PADI divers are not dropping like flies, or getting hurt any more frequently than any other agency. Except possibly that PADI certifies multi-times more than the others and will therefore have more potential.

 

[MHK]

MechDiver once bubbled...


And, in reality and outside of GUE, I don't think you will. Not that it isn't a good thing, but how many OW divers always dive with a "team"? I'd say very few. Therefore you have to relearn the whole thing everytime you change buddies. The team concept, IMO, does not have the impact in recreational diving that it does in tech diving and is one of the main reasons I doubt you'll ever see it in an OW class. Time and money being the other reasons...

MD

Merch,

I think you made my point for me. What a fair amount of us believe is that there has been a slow, but steady, decline in the training process and with each and every act at saving "time" during training, the result has become a less then quality training process. But since the decline has been slow there hasn't been that smoking gun that can be pointed to as evidence of a decline, thus the point is debated rather then addressed.

Take for example the common practice by some instructors of putting a few extra pounds on their students [ for control, or for ease of descent, which is what you here commonly] and/or sitting their students on their knees for skill sessions.. Again that was done with the interest of saving "time". So as you see, some don't teach nuetral bouyancy, in the interest of "time", some don't teach porper weighting, in the interest of "time", some don't teach team protocols, in the interest of "time", but yet this whole thread is based upon the predicate that 2 days is sufficent time for open water training. I know, from my perspective, that is the disconnect that frustrates me when it's obvious skills are being modified in the interest of time, but the practice of shorter classes is defended as sufficient. I guess it's depends on the definition of "quality" classes..

Again, this is just my opinion and it isn't meant to attack any specific agency and/or instructor, it's an industry wide problem that can only be addressed upon the acknowledgement that a problem exsists..

Later

 

[TCDiver1]

MHK,

Just out of curiousity, what is the typical GUE OW program schedule? Is it being taught yet?

To answer your question on team skills, no way in heck is two days enough IMO. Four days works fine for most who are willing to take their lessons seriously FME.

Since they have taken their lessons seriously, they continue to hone their skills, including teamwork, with time in water. Kinda like our 16 year old kids just after they get their drivers license.

 

[MechDiver]

MHK once bubbled...


Merch,

I think you made my point for me.

You're up against reality though Mike. The reality is people don't want to spend weeks learning to dive and, therefore, with a few exceptions, won't pay for it.

I also, and I know this is against everything you teach, don't put much weight in "team" for recreational diving. Technical diving is totally different and team is an inherent part of that type of diving.

Best,
MD

 

[MHK]

gedunk once bubbled...
MHK,

Just out of curiousity, what is the typical GUE OW program schedule? Is it being taught yet?

To answer your question on team skills, no way in heck is two days enough IMO. Four days is works fine for most who are willing to take their lessons seriously FME.

The GUE OW program is still being evaluated by JJ and the BOD, I spoke to JJ about that last week before DEMA and he told me that it's about 6 months away. Accordingly, what I'm offering in this reply is how some of us GUE instructors that are also OW instructors are teaching currently. I suspect much of what we are doing will be very similiar to the GUE program, but that is JJ's call so don't hold me to it ;-)

We teach 9 dives plus 2-4 pool sessions. Currently I teach under SSI for OW classes, but I tell all my potential students up front and before they pay me a penny, that they could get it faster and cheaper elsewhere and I often give the Sport Chalet's phone number, and I'm very candid in saying that many will offer faster and cheaper so you need to decide for yourselves how you want to be trained. If you are looking for the quickie class, then I'm not the right instructor for you. If you want to get properly trained, then I'll give you a commitment and I expect the same from you..

Hope that helps

Later

 

[Lead_carrier]

gedunk once bubbled...

Lead,
Are you saying you occasionally teach the full OW program, all academic, all CW and all OW in one weekend, (two days?) Or are you saying you teach it in two weekends, (four days?)

The weekend does not include OW dives.

So far the few that I have done have worked great for me. The people I had were anxious to learn. Very comfortable in the water and not whiners when told that they needed to work a bit harder on a skill. Even the one I "demoted" to a regular class didn't complain to much. Maybe I've just been lucky with the ones we get in the weekends, but then again we discuss it with them before they get into the class and they know what to expect. I actually get a couple of hours extra pool time out of that type of class.