Wetsuit under dry suit?

[scubadobadoo]

I would think a wetsuit under a drysuit would be effective thermal protection...it's absurd to say that it has no insulative abilities because it is dry. And wouldn't the wetsuit remain uncompressed inside the drysuit? So it would not lose its insulative abilities at depth, the key disadvantage to wetsuits alone as I see it.

But as for wetsuits under drysuits, I have no experience with that, but in theory it seems like it would work. I imagine regular undergarments would be a lot more comfortable.

I disagree with this part. The wet suit will compress anyway and will be less effective.

I do think we are basically arguing the same thing about wet suits, I am just assuming the water will enter and already has and it can't be stopped. However, a wet suit doesn't make a good insulator under a dry suit. Is it an insulator? Yes, ofcourse. We do agree.

 

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

*sigh*...whatever, scubadoobadoo...the water really has nothing to do with it other than draining some heat from your body in the initial warming. After all, how can water that is warmed with heat pulled from your body really be said to be keeping you warmer?

But clearly I and others could explain this until we are blue in the face, and you'll insist that the water has something to do with the wetsuit's insulation. After all, wasn't that the reason you initially stated it wouldn't work under a drysuit?

To me...saying the water has involvement is like saying that it's the *air* inside a winter coat that keeps you warm...not the coat itself. That statement is obviously absurd...so why don't people understand the wetsuit thing? Who knows.

Hopefully some others reading this thread will understand this persistent myth about wetsuits a little better after reading the explanations above.

 

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

I disagree with this part. The wet suit will compress anyway and will be less effective.

Yeah...see my post about 10 above this one where I agree with that...

 

[scubadobadoo]

I think this all started with the Question about "wet suit under a DRY suit" NO water in there except some sweat!!!!

Yes. LOL. Now I see the confusion. In my case, lots of sweat and that certainly doesn't help keep me warm. Certainly more sweat in a wet suit under a dry suit! LOL. :11:

 

[scubadobadoo]

*sigh* After all, how can water that is warmed with heat pulled from your body really be said to be keeping you warmer?

Because the water that is chilling your body on the inside is still warmer than the water on the outside of the wet suit. I understand that this water layer isn't the real insulator, but it will exist, and once it does, it does aid in keeping your body warmer for longer. The neoprene, the water layer, and the body all act together. Thus, the water layer does play a role. I get that it isn't the actual insulator and I have stated this MANY times now. It starts with the wet suit but that's not the only part of the equation. I still stand by my point that the water layer plays a role, that's why trapping it is good.

How about this quote from scubadiving.com..."Once water does get inside and soaks up some of your heat, you at least want to keep it from leaving quickly, so "trapping" is a good thing. If you can't keep the burglar out of your house, at least slow him down."

Or this from the encyclopedia..."As long as this warm layer of water remains in place, maintaining thermal equilibrium needs little heat energy. If water circulates freely in and out of the suit, however, the body uses additional energy to warm the new cold water. This is why snug fit is so important."

I agree with everything you have said about wet suits being an insulator, however, that water layer is important, assuming that your wet suit fits fairly well and that water layer ISN'T flowing in and out but but is stagnant for the most part.

Let me also say that exposure suits don't keep you warm anyway. They just keep you from freezing faster and that water layer is playing a part there too just based on the fact that it will be warmer than the colder water outside the suit..

 

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

I understand that this water layer isn't the real insulator, but it will exist, and once it does, it does aid in keeping your body warmer for longer.

You are totally wrong! The water does not in any way shape or form help keep your body warmer longer. It is a drain on heat. Sorry, that's physics. You are really wrong on this one. There's no wiggle room.

How about this quote from scubadiving.com..."Once water does get inside and soaks up some of your heat, you at least want to keep it from leaving quickly, so "trapping" is a good thing. If you can't keep the burglar out of your house, at least slow him down."

Right...how about that quote. It totally supports my and others' assertion that water is a necessary evil in a wetsuit. It will ALWAYS be a heat drain. Minimizing the extent of that drain is the reason to trap water. If you can eliminate all flowthrough, then you can eliminate heat loss by convection, which is the primary source of heat loss. But even the trapped water is still a heat drain. It is no way an insulator. It is not part of a "system" to keep you warmer. It is a heat drain...nothing else. The neoprene is the ONLY thing that keeps you warmer.

I'm sorry, but you really are just wrong on this one. You've changed your stance over the course of this thread, and now you want me to agree that the water at least has a *little* to do with it. Well, it doesn't. That's a fact of physics and the universe we all live in.

Or this from the encyclopedia..."As long as this warm layer of water remains in place, maintaining thermal equilibrium needs little heat energy. If water circulates freely in and out of the suit, however, the body uses additional energy to warm the new cold water. This is why snug fit is so important."

I think it's funny how you post quotes in support of my stance, but you use them to try to augment your flawed argument. Note how this quote says 'As long as this warm layer of water remains in place, maintaining thermal equilibrium needs little heat energy'. In other words, even the trapped water pulls a little energy from you. It is a heat drain. Miminimizing circulating water minimizes BUT DOES NOT ELIMINATE the heat drain. The water in your suit is always a heat drain and has nothing to do with staying warm in a wetsuit.

I agree with everything you have said about wet suits being an insulator, however, that water layer is important, assuming that your wet suit fits fairly well and that water layer ISN'T flowing in and out but but is stagnant for the most part.

Well, you agree partially now...but your first post you said it was the water and not the neoprene that keeps you warm...so we're getting somewhere. But you're still entirely wrong about the water layer being an important part of how the wetsuit keeps you warm. If the water weren't there, you'd be warmer. Yes, wetsuits get wet...that's why they are cheaper than drysuits. But the water in a suit is a necessary evil and is not at all helpful in keeping you warm. Quite the opposite. That's just a fact. Sorry you don't like that fact.

You really do want to stop trying to defend your argument, because it's just flat-out wrong, and sooner or later I imagine you'll realize that. You are repeating an old scuba myth, and you don't want to let go of it.

 

[scubadobadoo]

and he misses the fact that the water is stealing the heat from the body.

And you miss the fact that the water (the inner water layer) is stealing LESS heat than the water outside the wet suit because it is now warmer than the water on the outside. I get that the inner water layer steals heat from the body (you missed where I stated that above) but once it has absorbed heat from the body it is warmer and assuming you can keep that same inner layer there, it will stay warmer longer than the outside water and it will aid in keeping you from getting colder faster because it will chill slower than the water on the outside. The water WILL get in. It's a WET suit. You can't stop it. Get my point?

 

[JeffG]

And you miss the fact that the water (the inner water layer) is stealing LESS heat than the water outside the wet suit because it is now warmer than the water on the outside. I get that the inner water layer steals heat from the body (you missed where I stated that above) but once it has absorbed heat from the body it is warmer and assuming you can keep that same inner layer there, it will stay warmer longer than the outside water and it will aid in keeping you from getting colder faster because it will chill slower than the water on the outside. The water WILL get in. It's a WET suit. You can't stop it. Get my point?

LOL...Keep on squirming...talk to yourself long enough you should be able to convince yourself that the world is flat.

 

[jiveturkey]

And you miss the fact that the water (the inner water layer) is stealing LESS heat than the water outside the wet suit because it is now warmer than the water on the outside. I get that the inner water layer steals heat from the body (you missed where I stated that above) but once it has absorbed heat from the body it is warmer and assuming you can keep that same inner layer there, it will stay warmer longer than the outside water and it will aid in keeping you from getting colder faster because it will chill slower than the water on the outside. The water WILL get in. It's a WET suit. You can't stop it. Get my point?

Just because it steals less heat doesn't mean it creates heat.

 

[scubadobadoo]

You used the word minimize. "Minimizes...the heat drain." That's my whole point! You agree.