What if DIR Evolved Elsewhere... (take two)

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Research diving is what it is today because it was initially designed and continuously peer reviewed by committees of experts who were trying to do the best they knew how for the institutions whey worked at.

Can you explain what you mean by peer review? I'm just not sure that I (or most folks reading this thread) understand what the process involves. Can you provide some specific examples of how it improved protocols for the divers you train? How could the peer review process be applied to sport diving? And what advantages do you foresee it would bring to the recreational dive community?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I'm interested in that, too, Bob. I understand peer review in a medical setting, and would be interested in diving research peer review methods.

This forum (tech diving) doesn't have a Research Diving subforum, I don't notice one on the board...maybe this is an oversight. On the other hand, maybe research divers are happy on other boards dedicated to their craft.
 
Daniel F Aleman:
Interesting to note, DIR is a result of amateur practice, and not due to military, scientific, or commercial needs.

Interesting points Although all are wrong. DIR has alot more of a connection to military diving than you'd care to admit. It is also based on increased safety in a scientific arena, which is the WKPP, unless those are rec dives. Commercial needs? Are you kidding? GUE, Halcion and 3 levels of training before you can dive a SC rebreather? Nope, nothing commercial about that!

The better statement would be to say that early dive explorers, saw a need for increased safety and (like the military) adopted a unified, controlled, and accepted way of diving. This enabled the teams to do scientific research in a safer and more controlled manner. The early pioneers of this system also saw a financial opportunity and decided to sell the "system" to "outsiders" therefore funding their indeavors and realising a commercial goal.

TS&M Has great examples below:

Standardizing gear makes checking it much faster and more efficient -- Each team member knows what the others should look like and how things should be arranged, and they are more likely to catch anything out of sorts. Building a thorough set of checks into the system, and training people to be meticulous about carrying them out, is going to nip most problems in the bud.

exactly the same thing we did in the military.

Requiring a high degree of skill development from the divers, and insisting on frequent practice of emergency procedures, is going to make it likely that any problems which do arise underwater will be handled efficiently.

Exactly, military mindset yet again

Educating divers about decompression theory, and teaching careful ascent procedures and a standardized approach to deco, will make it more likely that an entire team will execute their ascent and decompression according to plan.

This is no different than any other good dive organization

Some of the gear configuration decisions of DIR definitely came out of cave diving, and one can make arguments that they aren't required or possibly even optimal for other settings (although I have yet to see what the problem with a 7' hose, properly routed, in any other diving setting is). But streamlining gear and eliminating entanglement hazards is going to be beneficial in all circumstances.

Absolutely, the system was developped for cave diving and big cave explorations. It DOES NOT work for sumps, or for tight sidemount / no mount exploration. Although the rational by the "organization" is that if it doesn't adhere to the specific equipment requirements, then it's not worth exploring. I find this VERY narrow minded in deed.

So I would think that all systems designed to maximize efficiency and safety in a broad range of diving activities would share a lot of those qualities.

Well said, but "the system" is designed for large cave exploration and scootering. That is the mission goal. It is not designed, nor is it optimal for many other forms of diving. While safer it might be, optimal it isn't. It isn't even optimal for all cave diving. The emphasis placed on trim, is not always possible, nor is it always safe. Sometimes you just have to remove all the air from your wing / drysuit and claw your way to the bottom just to set a line, because you're on the business end of a firehose. in essence, that cave should be off limits to DIR divers, as they cannot possibly dive it the way it's stipulated and therefore should just thumb the dive at the picnic table.
 
Thal,
I am not sure where you are trying to head with this. But I would be willing to bet that more AAUS trained divers have died on dives VS DIR trained divers. So what is your point about different training methods and procedures? Some work others don't? Yours is better than theirs? How do we measure yours vs theirs?
FC
You'd loose your bet. We had one fatality in the Antarctic and the one that recently occurred in Alaska (which I do not believe was an AAUS trained diver). That's in over ten million documentable (e.g., formally logged with the institution under whose auspices the dives were conducted). What's the point? Nothing more than to demonstrate that there are many equally effective ways to get things done underwater and that DIR/GUE/UID neither has an inside track nor a patent.
 
Those of you who know me are aware that I am the poster boy of non-DIR diving, and have objected in the past to the label of "DIR" which I still feel is inappropriate since it does not seem to leave room for other approaches to diving under other diving conditions or goals. However, there is much about the DIR philosophy that I think makes a lot of sense given the type of diving done by many of the folks trained in these methods.

I didn't read the other thread in the DIR forum so I'm posting this blind. To expand on Thal's comments, I think much of the DIR philosophy could develop independently in other groups of divers with specific but different dive goals through a process known as "convergent evolution." DIR or Unified Team diving has adopted some good practices that would make sense to many different types of divers.
 
The emphasis placed on trim, is not always possible, nor is it always safe. Sometimes you just have to remove all the air from your wing / drysuit and claw your way to the bottom just to set a line, because you're on the business end of a firehose. in essence, that cave should be off limits to DIR divers, as they cannot possibly dive it the way it's stipulated and therefore should just thumb the dive at the picnic table.

I'm sorry. I agree with most of your points, but your comments on "required trim" are just not accurate.

Nowhere in any of my GUE courses has any instructor required horizontal trim in all situations. I think you are taking statements made on the internet firmly out of context here.

It is true that since DIR-F and tech1 are open water and not cave/overhead courses that most emphasis in them is places on good horizontal trim, because:
1) it shows you can hold a stable position in the water and have control over your position
2) it is most often appropriate in open water

but for cave, there has never been a requirement for 100% level trim if the cave doesn't call for it. I honestly don't see how anyone can really think DIR divers cannot dive a cave if you cannot put a spirit-level on them.

Now, if "going on your knees" or "getting on the bottom" were used as excuses to disguise poor technique, I can definitely see it.

heck, by your arguments, I wouldn't be able to get past the entrance to Mayan blue, yet I see GUE instructors somehow guiding people in there .... hmmm.

On the sidemount issue, I do agree that GUE doesn't have a good story for people at the cave1/2 levels for sure. And I think it's not about gear, more about techniques and procedures that would have to be re-learned.
 
I have always looked at the DIR method as used by the WKPP and GUE as extremely military in practice if not in origin. Equipment standardization, placement location, and training come right out of just about any training manual that you can find.

All of this is exactly what is required if you are doing multiple mile penetrations into a cave with total dive/deco times getting to what they are up to now, which I think are in the 26-30+ range.

As for the military analogy, I have always thought that the photos of a pure GUE set of divers looks a lot like the Airborne getting ready for a jump.

C-130 Rolling down the strip.
Airborne daddy on a one-way trip.
Mission unspoken, destination unknown.
They don't even know if they'll ever come home.
Stand up hook up, shuffle to the door.
Jump right out and count to four.
If my main don't open wide.
I've got a reserve right by my side.
If that one should fail me too.
Look out ground, I'm a coming through
I'll hit the ground before you do!
Pin my medals upon my chest,
and bury me in the leaning rest.
When I get to heaven.
St. Peter's gonna say.
How'd you earn your livin?
How'd you earn your pay?
And I will reply with a little bit of anger:
Earned my pay as an Airborne soldier
 
I'm sorry. I agree with most of your points, but your comments on "required trim" are just not accurate.

Nowhere in any of my GUE courses has any instructor required horizontal trim in all situations. I think you are taking statements made on the internet firmly out of context here.

You are more than likely correct. It just seems to me (as a NON GUE trained) diver, that the issue of trim, trim, trim, is hammered to the point of a fault. Sometimes the trim needs to go out the window, in order to get a job done, or access a certain part of a cave through a verticle or high flow situation.

I was basing my argument on face to face discussions with some GUE buddies, and what I read on SB and TDS. I just believe that there's more to a good diver than just trim.

Based on your comment, I will stand corrected for the trim issue if it isn't really as big a deal as my buddies / the boards seem to make it.

It is true that since DIR-F and tech1 are open water and not cave/overhead courses that most emphasis in them is places on good horizontal trim, because:
1) it shows you can hold a stable position in the water and have control over your position
2) it is most often appropriate in open water

Absolutely no argument from me there.

but for cave, there has never been a requirement for 100% level trim if the cave doesn't call for it. I honestly don't see how anyone can really think DIR divers cannot dive a cave if you cannot put a spirit-level on them.

I Agree, but just to interject, while reading TS&M's excellent dive report in the florida caves, she seemed a little disturbed that she had to dump the trim in order to lay a line in a high flow situation. She did the right thing, but she should never have questioned her abilities to do so. It's the "Oh my god, I'm out of trim, what if another DIR diver sees me, why can't I do this while trimmed out, It must be me, it's my fault, I need to practice alot more" sentiment that annoys me.

I am sure TS&M is a very good diver, and probably a little harder on herself than she needs to be, but there should be no question in her mind of what to do when a situation like dumping trim arrises. And I blame the training organisation for this 100%. They should inform their divers that NOT ALL CONDITIONS will be diveable with perfect trim, and some situations require you to change that. Also, the students shouldn't feel like thy are cheating on their spouse if they somehow blow trim etc...

Now, if "going on your knees" or "getting on the bottom" were used as excuses to disguise poor technique, I can definitely see it.

Again no argument there!

heck, by your arguments, I wouldn't be able to get past the entrance to Mayan blue, yet I see GUE instructors somehow guiding people in there .... hmmm.

Exactly, it's a double standard, and a GUE / DIR diver should not be afraid or ashamed of their skills. You do what you have to do in the conditions given. Being straight up and down in a verticle passage does not make you a bad diver. Clawing your way through the eye is not something you should be ashamed of.

On the sidemount issue, I do agree that GUE doesn't have a good story for people at the cave1/2 levels for sure. And I think it's not about gear, more about techniques and procedures that would have to be re-learned.

Perhaps.
 
Can you explain what you mean by peer review? I'm just not sure that I (or most folks reading this thread) understand what the process involves. Can you provide some specific examples of how it improved protocols for the divers you train? How could the peer review process be applied to sport diving? And what advantages do you foresee it would bring to the recreational dive community?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Pretty straight forward: a peer is thought to be an "equal" but in practice within science is most often a "better." So it's nothing more than review of one's plans, procedures, methods, results, conclusions, etc. by a "blue-ribbon" panel of accomplished folks who are doing similar work. In a research diving situation this can happen at several levels. All AAUS Institutions have a Diving Control Board. This board is composed of the Diving Safety Officer and typically four of five others, the majority of the board must be active institutional divers, and typically all members are, except perhaps for the institution's Director of Risk Management who is ex-officio. It is chaired by an elected member who is not the DSO. A typical example would be: The D.S.O., the Director of Technical Facilities (in this case a very experienced research diver and a research diving instructor), two faculty members (experienced research divers), one grad student (fairly new research diver), and two research staff members (both research divings, one a member of the training staff). This group is responsible to the Head of Institution for the conduct of all research diving. It meets monthly and standard agenda outline might be:
  1. Approval of the minutes of the previous meeting.
  2. Review of all diving activity (programs and individual diver logs) of the previous month.
  3. Audit of equipment and compressor logs.
  4. Review of all diver credentials. This may result in restriction of divers who have not made their required depth proficiency dives or advancement of divers who have met experience or "work-up" dive criteria. This is also when newly trained diver's course results are reviewed and a determination as to their status is reached.
  5. Review of proposals for diving research. This includes emergency plan updates or approval of new research sites.
  6. Review of proposals for the addition of new equipment items in the approved equipment list.
  7. Review of proposals for changes in approved techniques.
  8. Review of proposals for changes in rules, regulations and guidelines.
  9. Quarterly forward-look for the next four quarters.
  10. Forward-look for longer term projects.
  11. New business not yet covered.
  12. Review and assignment of action items coming out of the meeting.
That's the micro scale. On a macro scale there are multi-institutional problems that get addressed first by becoming topics of conversation and correspondence between the DSO's and that ultimately wind up as a formal report or proceedings from a workshop, usually with a set of succinct operational guielines, (e.g., the AAUS sponsored Workshops on Polar Diving, Dive Computers, Reverse Profile Diving, or the National Science Foundation sponsored workshops on Shipboard Diving Safety or Small-scale, Low Cost Submersibles.)

Let's take an example where this process changed the way in which everyone dives, in all communities, Diving Computers. In the early 1980s, when diving computers first became available, they were considered by most divers and diving authorities to be voodoo. The common wisdom was that they should be avoided at all cost and that if you used them, you were 'gonna die. There were only four significant ones available, the SUUNTO (two models, the ML and USN), the DACOR "Micro-Brain," the Pelagic (USD and Oceanic hockey-sticks) and the ORCA Edge.

We had an eight week blue-water diving cruise coming up. I proposed to the National Science Foundational that it fund the purchase of six ORCA Edge computers for use on that cruise. Our Diving Control Board reviewed and approved the proposal, I sent it off the NSF and it was funded (there's a peer review process there too ... I assume the proposal went to DSOs and scientists from other institutions for comments).

Everyone on our Diving Control Board dove the Edges for several months and approved their trial use on the upcoming cruise with a bunch of considerations and restrictions. These included:
  1. No-decompression diving only with a requirement that 5 minutes of no-D time be maintained regardless of depth.
  2. The board required that a tank of pure oxygen be hung at ten feet and any diver that broke the 5 minute rule was required to breathe ten minutes of oxygen before ascending. This was pretty radical stuff for 1983, but tuned out to be unnecessary and was discontinued (with board permission).
  3. ORCA's recommended ascent rate was to be followed.
  4. Divers were to work from deep to shallow and "blow off" the last of their tanks around twenty feet.
We later added six "Skinny Dippers" to our Edges and loaned those 12 computers, along with two Oceanics, two U.S. Divers, two Dacors and two SUUNTO MLs (all provide by manufacturers) to research divers and DSOs from many institutions.

During the next five years slow acceptance of dive computers was growing as were our conversations. This culminated in a workshop, chaired by Mike Land and Bill Hamilton were, in a weekend, dive computers were transformed from deadly works of the devil to everyday useful items. The efficacy of this approach can be seen not only from that result, but from the fact that virtually every question I have ever seen on the Scuba Board was anticipated and answered in the proceedings of that workshop.

In terms of training protocols, the DCB had to approve all courses taught, appoint the staff for all courses and review the details of the exercises used and the way in which the exercises fit together. More specific review was provided by all members of the training staff who, at weekly meeting, discussed what was working best for which student and what might be done better.

Could any of this apply to recreational diving? A lot of it once did, back when NAUI was the dominant agency and the Branch system flourished. Today ... there is no community of instructors bound together by a common task like a yearly Branch ITC, there is no peer review, all there is seems to be bumph from the agency HeadSheads and BS from the LDS owners.
 
And I blame the training organisation for this 100%. They should inform their divers that NOT ALL CONDITIONS will be diveable with perfect trim, and some situations require you to change that.

i've been informed of that in GUE courses. happy now?

i think the brittannic video has JJ going head down to enter a compartment as well... breaking trim at 400+...
 
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http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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