What newbies should know about our arguments

[MikeFerrara]

mgri once bubbled...


Very good point. It's been the anti-DIR crowd on this board that has made me interested in finding out what DIR is about.

I have come to discover that the majority of anti-dir people on this board are either old time divers who have been there and done that which feel slightly put off by this "new" group telling them what they are doing wrong. (understandable)

or

It's the purely recreational divers that simple can't get anything out of DIR/GUE simply because they feel comfortable with their 80 fsw max dives during their summer vacation or trip to the local quarry. For this group jacket BCs and single 80s are more than adequate so they see nothing worth while. (I would imagine Lawman fits in this group... nothing wrong with that)

So, to the king troll I say keep on trolling so that more divers(that are willing to be) will be exposed to something new and useful.

This may be how many think. If you forget the term DIR for a moment and concider the primary things DIR (and others) promote, it's the cassual recreational diver who will benefit the most from properly tought and learned skills. They are also at the most risk of injuries due to little inconveniences that turn into problems if not managed correctly. It takes little more effort on the part of the diver/student. The huge extra effort lies with the instructor. at least when it comes to learning how to teach it. Even them, once part of the learning curve is past it's then far easier for both the student and the instructor.

Once trim with good buoyancy control, everything else in diving is easier and easier to learn.

The huge misconception is the idea that some monstrous extra effort that is too much to ask of the cassual diver is equired. It's just the opposit. The effort comes in when you have to strugle through you dives.
IMO, this is what's most important for newbies to understand.

 

[BigJetDriver]

I posted this on the thread entitled: "Interesting history of DIR debate" but that thread seems to have wandered off in different directions, as is the way of some of these discussions!


Flame Wars
"In the technical diving sense, "tech" stands for both TECHNIQUE and TECHNOLOGY: the acquisition of esoteric knowledge in the use of state-of-the-art equipment." This quote is from "The Technical Diving Handbook" by Gary Gentile. The emphasis on the two words is mine.

I have quoted this for two reasons attached to those two words, "technique" and "technology", since a lot of this constant debating revolves around both of them.

First, increasingly better technology has made it possible for us as tech divers to do as Gary states: "We make dives to depths and durations once thought of as mad, but which now are commonplace." I, of course, am a fan of technology! One cannot fly the aircraft I fly around the world without being both awed and enthralled by it! We could not do what we do without it!

Second, the word "technique" can have many meanings. In the sense that it can mean "efficient and safe practices", I embrace it! In the sense that it can mean "one must do it this way and only this way", I abhor it!

I have, at times, been accused of being "anti-DIR" by some. I will say this as plainly as I can. THIS IS NOT SO! I have friends who are instructors, particularly in the cave community, who teach and practice those techniques. It works well, and is an efficient style. Further, there is never anything wrong with working to improve one's diving skills and abilities. Some of the things advocated by the DIR group are useful and practical and SHOULD be included in dive training in general, but especially should be included in the training of those who intend to do more advanced diving profiles!

There are, however, certain "spokesmen" for the DIR community who I object to completely and utterly. My second "hat", if you will, after my flying hat is that of certified police officer and police instructor. In that role, and personally, I have a real objection to the actions of sociopaths. These certain "spokesmen", and I do mean that with the utmost scorn, put forth in print messages that are so offensive in nature that they can only be described as psychopathic. I object to that, and believe that people properly raised in a polite society will always object to that kind of behavior!

Does this mean that I condemn people who like to dive in the "DIR Style" or who believe that it has something to offer? Certainly not! I SAY AGAIN, CERTAINLY NOT!!!

Does this mean that I will always condemn sociopaths, and those who emulate them? YES!!! ABSOLUTELY, AND ALWAYS YES!!!

So, at a guess, in reference to the original beginnings of this thread, the ruckus stems not from the more reasoned and lucid advocates of one style or another, but from those more lunatic in their approach!:box:

 

[Custer]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...

And therein lies Lawman's problems with DIR. Not that there is anything specific wrong with the system, but that he doesn't want to put forth the effort to improve his diving. Instead, its far easier to strive for mediocrity and attack what you don't understand.

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Tighten up that drag there a little, Lawman.

 

[ScottyK]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Once trim with good buoyancy control, everything else in diving is easier and easier to learn.

While we're all understanding one another and having a group hug here allow me to make a request of all you SB old timers on behalf of some of the new posters.

1- New to this board doesn't "necessarily" mean new to diving, or stupid. Ignoring people, or answering like you think you're dealing with a five year old will only cause some possibly cool people to stop posting here, and leave more bandwidth for the trolls/flamers.

2- The benefits of at least lookng into DIR training are obvious to anyone with an open mind. That does not however, "necessarily" mean that all non DIR divers are floundering arund in the mud. I'll hover in North Atlantic surge in any conditions with the best of you.

If any of you ever get out this way, I'd be glad to demonstrate while showing you a great time doing any kind of dive you'd like. Hopefully you'll reciprocate by showing Jen and I some DIR methods, and we can finish up with a barbecue and some brews.

My 2 cents

Scott

 

[MikeFerrara]

ScottyK once bubbled...


While we're all understanding one another and having a group hug here allow me to make a request of all you SB old timers on behalf of some of the new posters.

1- New to this board doesn't "necessarily" mean new to diving, or stupid. Ignoring people, or answering like you think you're dealing with a five year old will only cause some possibly cool people to stop posting here, and leave more bandwidth for the trolls/flamers.

2- The benefits of at least lookng into DIR training are obvious to anyone with an open mind. That does not however, "necessarily" mean that all non DIR divers are floundering arund in the mud. I'll hover in North Atlantic surge in any conditions with the best of you.

If any of you ever get out this way, I'd be glad to demonstrate while showing you a great time doing any kind of dive you'd like. Hopefully you'll reciprocate by showing Jen and I some DIR methods, and we can finish up with a barbecue and some brews.

My 2 cents

Scott

ok, but I'm not sure why you quoted me here. I was addressing the argument that the cassual diver doesn't need as high a skill level. We here that argument often. I certainly never said that dIR was the only way to get there and wasn't trying to promote it especially since I haven't any GUE training at all and likely never will have. At least 90% of my posts on this and other boards concern diver training and this post wasn't any different.

 

[The Chairman]

only what you put in, with hopefully some dividends.

It doesn't matter the agency... really.

Unfortunately, Lawman puts very little into these discussions. It is far easier to tear down another system than to actually perfect your own. He excels at playing the devil's advocate, but usually provides nothing constructive. I find his threads to be more devisive than anything. Some people just like to destroy what others have built. Quite sad, really.

 

[ScottyK]

Hey Mike- I quoted you because I thought what you said was worth repeating, and I agreed with it.

It seems (to me, tell me if I'm incorrect) that a lot of the DIR proponents feel that they somehow invented the concept of trim/buoyancy.

I think it gives the impression to new divers that if they don't get DIR training/equpment that they are doomed to hopelessly drift the oceans leaving silt and broken coral in their wake

It might help to let them know that no matter what your gear config, or training background, good buoyancy and trim can be achieved.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

NetDoc once bubbled...
only what you put in, with hopefully some dividends.

It doesn't matter the agency... really.

Unfortunately, Lawman puts very little into these discussions. It is far easier to tear down another system than to actually perfect your own. He excels at playing the devil's advocate, but usually provides nothing constructive. I find his threads to be more devisive than anything. Some people just like to destroy what others have built. Quite sad, really.

I don't know, Pete.

We should be able to discuss anything without insults and attacks. Neither the topic or the intentions of the topic starter excuse some of the stuff that goes on around here. Just because Lawman tosses a bone is no excuse for scrappin' over it. Why blame Lawman for our bickering?

I think his topics are usually good ones worthy of discussion. I don't know nor do I care what his motives are.

SA

 

[The Chairman]

as a non-DIR diver, I usually see his efforts as directed towards offending DIR divers. He has done it continually, comparing them to contemptuoulsy with a Baptist preacher this time. I am not sure who should be more outraged... the preacher or the DIR proponents. The jib was not designed to promote the exchange of ideas, but rather to promote his own agenda: that DIR divers are fanatacal and narrow minded people.

He doesn't seem to ask a question to try and understand... only to provoke. He knows how to hit their hot buttons and does it rather cosistently. This board was not created to harrass ANY diver or group of divers... but to freely promote the exchange of ideas. That some beleive their beliefs stronger than others does not mitigate their right to do so.

Hey, I get my character assassinated enough that I can see through the veil of "good intentions". His is a particularly thin veil, and it takes little discernment to see what he is up to.

 

[MikeFerrara]

ScottyK once bubbled...
Hey Mike- I quoted you because I thought what you said was worth repeating, and I agreed with it.

It seems (to me, tell me if I'm incorrect) that a lot of the DIR proponents feel that they somehow invented the concept of trim/buoyancy.

I think it gives the impression to new divers that if they don't get DIR training/equpment that they are doomed to hopelessly drift the oceans leaving silt and broken coral in their wake

It might help to let them know that no matter what your gear config, or training background, good buoyancy and trim can be achieved.

Some DIR folks do indeed seem to think that if you aren't DIR/GUE trained that you can't be any good. They are of course wrong but, I can understand how some come to believe it. This is especially true for fairly new divers and especially true in some areas simply because of the skill level we often see. Some one exposed to what I call "cave level skills" (just good technique) for the first time is usually pretty impressed. They're not seeing that skill level in their recreational instructors or the divers they usually see. As an industry we don't seem to worry about skill until some one wants to start technical or cave diving, which I think is insane.

While I think that a plate, wing and long hose is the best configuration, in a pinch yu can do a pretty good job in the water wit an bc. LOL