erichK
Contributor
I am initiating this thread because I was shocked by the comments some of those who make their living from us divers made in the "Dangerous dive or unprepared divers??" in the "Instructors's Panel" area. Participants were asked to comment on the following complaint to a dive operation:
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Dear Sir/Madame.
I am writing with regards to our recent dives. On Wednesday we went on a two tank Wreck dive. We went out to the dive site and the waters were very rough. We took quite some time to find the site. With the ocean quite rough the boat bobbed around like a cork.
On the way we were briefed about our dive. In the briefing we were told that the wreck was in about 80 feet of water, and there might be some current. No warning about what we would actually get into on the dive. Once at the site the skilled boat captain put us down current from the wreck. We entered the water. There was of course no warning that the current was particularly strong in the 40 to 50 foot range.
My wife was my buddy, as usual. We entered the water and I started my descent, keeping a close eye on my wife. As I descended, the rest of the group went right to the bottom and started moving off. My wife and I attempted to move towards them but were unable to move forward at all as we were diving into a very strong current. We struggled in our attempts to move and were becoming overwhelmed by the current and the disappearance of everyone else on the dive.
We were starting to hyperventilate as we worked so hard to try and find the group. We had to become calm and save ourselves from this dangerous situation. We surfaced and waited for the boat to come back and get us. As we sat on the boat another diver surfaced and he was exhausted. He fought the current as much as he could but could not stay down any longer. He expressed his concern about the danger of the dive and felt that this would be his last dive he would ever do, as it was clearly too dangerous.
Other divers surfaced and the usual beaming faces that divers have, after a good dive were nowhere to be seen. All of them were exhausted and one of them was cut on the arm and leg as a result of the currents pushing him into the wreck. We asked him how he got to the wreck and he advised that he had gone to the bottom and pulled himself along the rocks to make any progress against the current. He also advised that he had expended so much energy and air that he actually ran right out of air while in the wreck and had to buddy breath to his decompression stop and then to the surface.
My wife and I were very upset. We had been sitting on the rocking boat for 20 minutes and both of us vomited, in part from the boat and in part from the experience we had just been through. We spoke with the dive master and he advised that we should try the reef drift dive and that we would be comfortable on that dive. He advised the female dive leader to take our group and told her to make sure that she stayed with us.
We started the second dive. Once at the bottom the first group moved off to our left. Our group leader went right. We followed her as we had been instructed. We moved off for about 30 seconds and then she turned and told us to go join the other group. We turned and were hit with the cross current. There was no way to join the other group and in fact we moved off, once again losing sight of anyone from our group. We attempted to cross the current but could not. We drifted for awhile and moved up neared the surface to see if we could see anyone. No one was in sight. After several minutes we surfaced because we were alone in the ocean and felt it best to find the boat. We returned to the boat.
Approximately 10 minutes later the female dive master surfaced and asked us what happened this time. We told her that we had followed her and when she pointed us towards the other group we could not get there due to the current. When the dive master surfaced he came right to us and asked us what happened. We told him what happened and he told us that once we moved right with the other leader there was no was to get back to them. He said even he could not have gotten through the current to return to the group.
My wife and I are both advanced open water divers. We have dived in locations around the world. We have never been on dives like this. The wreck dive was in no way a recreational dive. With the strength of the current it was a dangerous dive. The absence of guidance and supervision made it a potentially fatal dive. The reef dive was not much better. The only advantage we had on the reef dive was that we had already been abandoned once and so knew how to react immediately.
With the force of the current the dive masters obviously didnt have time to check for air pressure as one fellow actually ran out of air. It would have been easy for him to have been in the wreck and not able to get to another diver for air. On the second dive there was no supervision at all. Upon returning to your office the dive master brought us to the main counter and spoke with a manager. The manager advised that he could offer a 50% refund as a credit towards a purchase in your store. We did not argue as we were both very upset. We left and returned to our hotel where my wife cried and shook for the rest of the day. I suspect that it will be quite some time before we ever scuba again.
You should be aware of the dangers and risks that your company is taking with peoples lives. I am writing to you to express my grave concerns and to make note of this type of conduct should other divers experience similar risks. I will be forwarding a copy of this letter to PADI and hope that they will take some action to either make sure you operate in a safe manner or remove the PADI name from your location. :
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The fairest comment seemed to be the one that immediately followed, that this was a combination of a crappy dive and inexperienced divers. Most of the other comments made blamed the divers, although, if their letter is to be believed, they received little warning about the fairly difficult nature of this dive.
They are, for example, castigated for "expecting a DM to check their air". In my experience, in group dives with a DM, it is normal practice for the DM to ask divers to indicate when they have used half their air. This allows the DM, who presumably knows the site and its hazards (currents, kelp, difficulty of the pick-up, both in terms of finding and of boarding divers for the boat).
Other comments--please read the thread--suggest that this couple are grossly inexperienced, are not very bright, are whinners. There is little criticism of a dive operation that, in my opinion, either did not sufficiently monitor conditions and properly brief their customers or simply put profit before safety.
I have been interested in this sport for many years, first certifying with the YMCA in 68 and then with ACUC in 82 and 01, then doing the PADI AOW and thier Nitrox in 03. I have been alarmed by an impression that SCUBA is being introduced to ever younger and ever less fit divers in ever easier courses. Athough I have never been trained as a SCUBA instructor, I have been a Water Safety and First Aid Instructor and lead and organized quite a number of activities over the years. Safety was always my paramount concern, even this hurt the pocketbook.
Are the "dive professionals" who are so critical of this couple some of the same people who sign up people resort courses by assuring them that diving is safer than driving a car and then sell them hundreds of dollars of equipment and thousands of dollars of dive trips by waxing enthusiastic about the wonders of the the deep and the beauty and comfort of destinations? If so, then they are engaging in the worst sort of hypocrisy.
In the seventy or so recent dives my family and I have undrtaken in B.C. and Washinton, Cuba, Dominica and Saba, we have dealt with about a dozen different dive operations. Some, notably Nature Island Dive, Nautilus Explorer live aboard and the El Colony Hotel based one in Cuba were extremely responsible and safe because they not only gave good dive briefings but also quietly but carefully assesed the skills of the groups they were hosting, and took the trouble/expense to cancel or postpone dives when they had safety concerns. Most of the others were okay, though in a few cases--I'll respond privately with names and examples, because no real harm was done--the rush the operators were in and background sound of a cash register ringing either posed some safety concerns or spoiled the experience.
On our most recent course, PADI Nitrox, all three of us were flabbergasted by the seemingly endless pages of caveats, waivers and releases we had to sign. There are alarming comments on the "Dangerous Dive..." thread that advise dive operators that it is safest not even to ask to see a logbook or ask divers about their experience.
In my opinion, any "dive professional" with such as attitude should be encouraged to leave this sport. If we do not put a real concern for safety and human life before profit and business-as-usual, then eventually the tragic consequences will be to force others to step in and regulate it for us.
Divers, old and new: how tdo you feel about the comments on this thread (PLEASE DO READ THE DANGEROUS DIVE OR INEXPERIENCED DIVERS THREAD). Where do you think the responsibility of Dive operators, instructors and dive masters begins..and ends? And perhaps also: are all the releases we are asked to sign are really justifiable, or do they give too much protection to iresponsible and incompetent operators?
*******************************************************************
Dear Sir/Madame.
I am writing with regards to our recent dives. On Wednesday we went on a two tank Wreck dive. We went out to the dive site and the waters were very rough. We took quite some time to find the site. With the ocean quite rough the boat bobbed around like a cork.
On the way we were briefed about our dive. In the briefing we were told that the wreck was in about 80 feet of water, and there might be some current. No warning about what we would actually get into on the dive. Once at the site the skilled boat captain put us down current from the wreck. We entered the water. There was of course no warning that the current was particularly strong in the 40 to 50 foot range.
My wife was my buddy, as usual. We entered the water and I started my descent, keeping a close eye on my wife. As I descended, the rest of the group went right to the bottom and started moving off. My wife and I attempted to move towards them but were unable to move forward at all as we were diving into a very strong current. We struggled in our attempts to move and were becoming overwhelmed by the current and the disappearance of everyone else on the dive.
We were starting to hyperventilate as we worked so hard to try and find the group. We had to become calm and save ourselves from this dangerous situation. We surfaced and waited for the boat to come back and get us. As we sat on the boat another diver surfaced and he was exhausted. He fought the current as much as he could but could not stay down any longer. He expressed his concern about the danger of the dive and felt that this would be his last dive he would ever do, as it was clearly too dangerous.
Other divers surfaced and the usual beaming faces that divers have, after a good dive were nowhere to be seen. All of them were exhausted and one of them was cut on the arm and leg as a result of the currents pushing him into the wreck. We asked him how he got to the wreck and he advised that he had gone to the bottom and pulled himself along the rocks to make any progress against the current. He also advised that he had expended so much energy and air that he actually ran right out of air while in the wreck and had to buddy breath to his decompression stop and then to the surface.
My wife and I were very upset. We had been sitting on the rocking boat for 20 minutes and both of us vomited, in part from the boat and in part from the experience we had just been through. We spoke with the dive master and he advised that we should try the reef drift dive and that we would be comfortable on that dive. He advised the female dive leader to take our group and told her to make sure that she stayed with us.
We started the second dive. Once at the bottom the first group moved off to our left. Our group leader went right. We followed her as we had been instructed. We moved off for about 30 seconds and then she turned and told us to go join the other group. We turned and were hit with the cross current. There was no way to join the other group and in fact we moved off, once again losing sight of anyone from our group. We attempted to cross the current but could not. We drifted for awhile and moved up neared the surface to see if we could see anyone. No one was in sight. After several minutes we surfaced because we were alone in the ocean and felt it best to find the boat. We returned to the boat.
Approximately 10 minutes later the female dive master surfaced and asked us what happened this time. We told her that we had followed her and when she pointed us towards the other group we could not get there due to the current. When the dive master surfaced he came right to us and asked us what happened. We told him what happened and he told us that once we moved right with the other leader there was no was to get back to them. He said even he could not have gotten through the current to return to the group.
My wife and I are both advanced open water divers. We have dived in locations around the world. We have never been on dives like this. The wreck dive was in no way a recreational dive. With the strength of the current it was a dangerous dive. The absence of guidance and supervision made it a potentially fatal dive. The reef dive was not much better. The only advantage we had on the reef dive was that we had already been abandoned once and so knew how to react immediately.
With the force of the current the dive masters obviously didnt have time to check for air pressure as one fellow actually ran out of air. It would have been easy for him to have been in the wreck and not able to get to another diver for air. On the second dive there was no supervision at all. Upon returning to your office the dive master brought us to the main counter and spoke with a manager. The manager advised that he could offer a 50% refund as a credit towards a purchase in your store. We did not argue as we were both very upset. We left and returned to our hotel where my wife cried and shook for the rest of the day. I suspect that it will be quite some time before we ever scuba again.
You should be aware of the dangers and risks that your company is taking with peoples lives. I am writing to you to express my grave concerns and to make note of this type of conduct should other divers experience similar risks. I will be forwarding a copy of this letter to PADI and hope that they will take some action to either make sure you operate in a safe manner or remove the PADI name from your location. :
************************************************************************
The fairest comment seemed to be the one that immediately followed, that this was a combination of a crappy dive and inexperienced divers. Most of the other comments made blamed the divers, although, if their letter is to be believed, they received little warning about the fairly difficult nature of this dive.
They are, for example, castigated for "expecting a DM to check their air". In my experience, in group dives with a DM, it is normal practice for the DM to ask divers to indicate when they have used half their air. This allows the DM, who presumably knows the site and its hazards (currents, kelp, difficulty of the pick-up, both in terms of finding and of boarding divers for the boat).
Other comments--please read the thread--suggest that this couple are grossly inexperienced, are not very bright, are whinners. There is little criticism of a dive operation that, in my opinion, either did not sufficiently monitor conditions and properly brief their customers or simply put profit before safety.
I have been interested in this sport for many years, first certifying with the YMCA in 68 and then with ACUC in 82 and 01, then doing the PADI AOW and thier Nitrox in 03. I have been alarmed by an impression that SCUBA is being introduced to ever younger and ever less fit divers in ever easier courses. Athough I have never been trained as a SCUBA instructor, I have been a Water Safety and First Aid Instructor and lead and organized quite a number of activities over the years. Safety was always my paramount concern, even this hurt the pocketbook.
Are the "dive professionals" who are so critical of this couple some of the same people who sign up people resort courses by assuring them that diving is safer than driving a car and then sell them hundreds of dollars of equipment and thousands of dollars of dive trips by waxing enthusiastic about the wonders of the the deep and the beauty and comfort of destinations? If so, then they are engaging in the worst sort of hypocrisy.
In the seventy or so recent dives my family and I have undrtaken in B.C. and Washinton, Cuba, Dominica and Saba, we have dealt with about a dozen different dive operations. Some, notably Nature Island Dive, Nautilus Explorer live aboard and the El Colony Hotel based one in Cuba were extremely responsible and safe because they not only gave good dive briefings but also quietly but carefully assesed the skills of the groups they were hosting, and took the trouble/expense to cancel or postpone dives when they had safety concerns. Most of the others were okay, though in a few cases--I'll respond privately with names and examples, because no real harm was done--the rush the operators were in and background sound of a cash register ringing either posed some safety concerns or spoiled the experience.
On our most recent course, PADI Nitrox, all three of us were flabbergasted by the seemingly endless pages of caveats, waivers and releases we had to sign. There are alarming comments on the "Dangerous Dive..." thread that advise dive operators that it is safest not even to ask to see a logbook or ask divers about their experience.
In my opinion, any "dive professional" with such as attitude should be encouraged to leave this sport. If we do not put a real concern for safety and human life before profit and business-as-usual, then eventually the tragic consequences will be to force others to step in and regulate it for us.
Divers, old and new: how tdo you feel about the comments on this thread (PLEASE DO READ THE DANGEROUS DIVE OR INEXPERIENCED DIVERS THREAD). Where do you think the responsibility of Dive operators, instructors and dive masters begins..and ends? And perhaps also: are all the releases we are asked to sign are really justifiable, or do they give too much protection to iresponsible and incompetent operators?
