What Responsibilities do Dive Operation Have?

[divebunnie]

I have read both threads on this subject, and yes I appreciate that you may have felt the comments on the other thread a little harsh.

It is usual practice for dive operations where I sometimes work (Sharm el Sheikh) to insist on a local check dive on the first day. You would be surprised by how many divers take great exception to this, yes they may well have plenty of dives under their belt, however a break since their last dive, change in kit configuration etc, can make the check dive a huge benefit… a chance to do a buoyancy check, make sure all is nice n dandy, and just to get mentally back in the water so to speak. It also gives the guide a chance to see what kind of diver you are, and suggest sites accordingly. It is also normal practice to brief dives quite thoroughly (especially with a new group of divers) warning about any potential for strong currents… in Tiran and Ras Mohammed in particular.

Having said that, this is not always usual practice worldwide, and I think because of the popularity of this destination with a whole range of divers, extra precautions are taken to ensure that only those up to it are sent to the more challenging sites.

As certified divers it is essentially our decision to make. If they felt inexperienced, they should have double checked this with their centre (I certainly did when I first started… there was no way I wanted to find myself on a challenging, deep, drift dive at that stage!).

Yes it would have been better to brief them that the current can actually get quite strong… a current check before anyone else entered the water would have probably been a good move. Then they could have made sure everyone entered the water and descended quickly as one group. There again many highly experienced divers do not appreciate this kind of molly coddling. As has been mentioned on more than one occasion, some people merely want a lift to the site and the basics of a briefing, which is absolutely their right.

I always go on the premise that it is my life, so I take my own considerations, I ensure that the dive is with my experience range, I also check my own air… often. That is certainly not up to the guide, they may ask how much you have at some point, as an indication to see when to turn the dive around or start shallowing off, however air management itself is absolutely the diver's own priority, regardless of current, or any other circumstances. In fact as we all know, when there has been a stressful situation, we are likely to have sucked a big chunk of air, so first priority is to check it.

I think that issue is what the other divers had focused on, as it indicated that the two divers were not entirely up to diving independently. The supervision aspect is the fundamental difference between Open Water diver and the more basic Scuba Diver qualifications in PADI. Maybe they had been used to being supervised quite heavily on previous dives, however a new dive centre will bring a slightly different system and personally I would have made it my own business to double check what kind of experience was necessary for that day's diving.

Having said that, I would be a touch concerned if a centre did not want to see me in the water prior to visiting a challenging site, and I would certainly expect to show my Certification card as well as at least the last few pages of my log book before being taken on a dive.

So in conclusion, I would say that we have a combination of both. But as a diver I would always watch my own back… certainly my own air… that really is my own responsibility.

 

[Scuby Dooby]

The problem is that there is a *big* difference between calling a dive or even a series of dives in Tobermory, a few hours drive away from home and finding our that dives one has spent thousands to book and travelled halfway around the world to complete are very different from what the pretty brochures/websites suggest.

I see very little difference except that the trip to the dive site was more expensive and probably took a lot longer. No matter where you happen to be the responsibility to dive or not is still yours. It seems to me that what you are really looking for here is travel insurance, not greater diving regulations.

When we dove with Nature Island Dive in the Souffriere Bay area of Dominica, they on more than one occasion decided not to go to a site because the surf and surge that day would be too strong. Small as they are, they are clearly a much better operation than the big one metioned at the start of this thread. The total information given suggests that they should have cancelled the dive, and that whoever was really in charge was more concerned about filling boats and collecting fees than the safety and comfort of *customers*.

Again, the obvious counter to this is that, had I been on that dive, I may well have been upset that the shop cancelled the dive when the conditions were not a great challenge for me. They would also be facing divers who are very upset that they have travelled around the world and spent lots of money to have a decision that they believe is theirs pulled out from under them.

I'm really not convinced by these arguments, I still believe that the ultimate responsibility to dive is mine. It is also my responsibility to assess the dive operator: do the boats and equipment appear to be well maintained, am I satisfied with the briefings and actions of the crew, etc.? If the answer to these questions is no and I don't feel safe then I shouldn't get in the water. This doesn't absolve dive operations of any responsibilities, I don't think anyone is arguing that at all. But to expect a dive op to know exactly what the conditions will be at every depth during all times of the dive and be able to judge the current level of fitness, experience and confidence of every diver that shows up that day AND match everyone of them to the perfect dive, with perfect conditions is clearly too much to ask.

If the places I dive with suddenly start telling me that I can't make dives in similar conditions that I've been out in before due to new 'regulation' of the sport then I will be very disappointed.

 

[divebunnie]

With you on that one scuby doo...

Whilst a good operation will give you all the required information and more, currents, visibility and wind can change by the minute, so can be unexpectedly strong or coming from a different direction. I also still feel it is essentially my responsibility as a qualified diver, to make sure that the dive is right for me. I think people forget that they can terminate a dive at any point, and sometimes they get into the mode of "I've paid for this so I will stick it out to the end".

With regards to responsibility I think it was Scuba who asked this… It is the DM's responsibility to take care of the logistics element and give a broad plan to the dive. Of course there are specifics that are expected from a DM or guide in their briefing such as:

name and description of the site
the role that the dm will take (eg. leading the dive or surface supervision)
entry and exit techniques (eg. giant stride or rolling off the side of a rib and care that should be taken)
dive proceedures (ie how the dive is going to run, including maximum air, time and depth)
emergency proceedures (such as reminding course of action should you lose your buddy)
a review of signals
a roster check
a reminder to buddy check

However it is the buddy pairs that should plan their specific dive to remain within their depth, air, time and not to mention experience limits.

There is also the expression "duty of care" which means that the guide does need to use good judgement during the dive, and be prepared for circumstances that could reasonably be expected to arise. However this does require a certain amount of honesty from the diver. If they claim to be experienced, then it is a little late for the guide to discover otherwise on the descent. I do feel though that the guide should have briefed the possibility of a strong current and proceedures should this occur. As mentioned in my previous post… a current check is always a wise move when doing these kind of dives.

There is also a duty of care that rests with the diver themselves, and it is up to them to ensure that as fully qualified, well practiced, they keep check on their air, depth and time limits and only dive within their own experience and training.
When I qualified as an open water diver, I was told that I was now able to dive with just another buddy and was well aware of the responsibility that that entails. I don't expect to have my hand held or too much personal attention, as this is likely to distract the guide's attention from the rest of the group. However if I ever felt at all uncomfortable or out of practice, I would request a private guide. This way I would have someone who would judge my abilities as an individual and work with me to develop my skills further.
In fact the case could go the other way, that by embarking on a dive outside their range, these divers could have caused a problem for the guide or other divers around them… who'se responsibility would that be, had the guide got bent and been unable to work for weeks?

 

[jimmyboy]

In MHO a Divemaster is not a babysitter, you are responsible for yourself and your buddy. Listen to the briefing, ask questions and assess the information about the dive. You learn in your certification to "dive within YOUR limits". Anyone can call a dive at anytime. If YOU are not 100% comfortable then you shouldn't do the dive. After 300 dives I have still called dives that I was not comfortable with. Remember it's your life so it should be your decision.

 

[opiniongirl]

The operation, and the leaders are at fault. Too many of this profession whine, "but they were certified!" Certification does not make an expert.

When a CLIENT is paying for a SERVICE (i.e. a guide), the professional is responsible. No, we can't change the weather, but when divers come up bleeding, out of air, and vomiting, that might be a good cue that perhaps the site ain't appropriate.

If a diver dies under a guided dive (barring natural cause) you'd better bet that the professional (and the court) will deem that the professional had a duty of care to supervise. Yes, that even means doing air checks. But they're certified!! Tell it to the judge, and the person's family. Not only does it prevent the issues mentioned above, it's good customer service, but underneath it all it makes for safer dives, and protects the professional in court.

Geez - kayak guides are expected to plot the course, pack the kayaks, set up everyone's camp, and make gourmet meals. And dive professionals find it too overwhelming to check air?

 

[Web Monkey]

If a diver dies under a guided dive (barring natural cause) you'd better bet that the professional (and the court) will deem that the professional had a duty of care to supervise. Yes, that even means doing air checks. But they're certified!! Tell it to the judge, and the person's family. Not only does it prevent the issues mentioned above, it's good customer service, but underneath it all it makes for safer dives, and protects the professional in court.

Buddys are supposed to keep an eye on each other, not the DM, unless the diver hired a DM to be his buddy.

All I want from a good DM is a good dive briefing so I can make my own decision to dive or not, and maybe point out cool stuff.

Aside from everything else, a DM herding a group of 8 or 10 people around cannot possibly monitor everybody all the time and can't keep someone 100 feet away from doing something stupid.

Geez - kayak guides are expected to plot the course, pack the kayaks, set up everyone's camp, and make gourmet meals. And dive professionals find it too overwhelming to check air?

Can they do it while going over the rapids?

Terry

 

[erichK]

Translation:

I know how to do this but I want you to be responsible for any failure on my part to do so safely. You make me sign a contract that squarely places the responsibility for my actions on my shoulders and I REALLY don't like that, so I'm going to advocate the use of state powers to force you to be responsible for my safety - to act the way I want you to.​

I suspect you're correct - short of coercion, there is no resolution to our disagreement, so I'm moving on. Dive safe. Please. Hopefully not on any boat I'm on. :11:

The problem is that a real discussion can only take place when there is mutual respect and willingness to *listen* to another point of view. I won't bother with the ham-handed personal attack and bizzare distortion of my attitudes. It's so far off the mark that it suggests desperation in trying to defend a fundamentally irrational position.

The legal definition of a "contract" is a *voluntary* agreement freely entered into, from which *both parties* benefit. The pages of legalese we are sometimes made to sign are more of a copout than a contract.

It was not the action of the couple in the case cited at the beginning of this thread that put them in danger, but rather the deliberate decision of a dive operator to put the safety of seventeen people of unknown diving experience and competence at risk by taking them out on a dive known to be difficult even for expert divers on a day when the Harbourmaster had assessed to be very bad. The only errors the couple can be accused of is not asking more forceful questions about conditions and bailout strategies, and perhaps going down too slowly. (Trapped air, temporary disorientation, some equipment glitch, ear or sinus problems?) They can hardly be blamed for momentary panic. Such a response is an involuntary part of human nature that can strike even very experienced divers. The fact that they stayed together, calmed each other down and safely ascended surely deserves some credit, too.

Yes, operators like this require waivers which exampt them from all responsibility for *their* irresponsible actions. But divers deserve better, more mutually responsible treatment.

 

[Scuby Dooby]

It was not the action of the couple in the case cited at the beginning of this thread that put them in danger, but rather the deliberate decision of a dive operator to put the safety of seventeen people of unknown diving experience and competence at risk by taking them out on a dive known to be difficult even for expert divers on a day when the Harbourmaster had assessed to be very bad. The only errors the couple can be accused of is not asking more forceful questions about conditions and bailout strategies, and perhaps going down too slowly. (Trapped air, temporary disorientation, some equipment glitch, ear or sinus problems?) They can hardly be blamed for momentary panic. Such a response is an involuntary part of human nature that can strike even very experienced divers. The fact that they stayed together, calmed each other down and safely ascended surely deserves some credit, too.

I'm guessing that you don't know all 17 divers on that boat. I'm also guessing that enough of them had the knowledge gained from theire dive training to know that if the dive was too much they could or would bail. This is normal and expected behavior for divers. From what I gather in the story, 15 others decided to go on the dive of their own volition without subsequent complaints.

Sorry to be further 'ham fisted' but I have to say that I hope you are not on my boat on any upcoming dive vacations - you are more likely to ruin a good trip than save me from myself. It is no ones fault that you live far away from most of the worlds dive spots (no dig at canada here) - the fact that you have invested alot to get there really shouldn't influence the way YOU evaluate you safety and when you choose to bail out on a dive. I think you are actually hurting your initial argument the more you post.

 

[The Kraken]

In my opinion, one of the things we need to consider when discussing whether or not the dive operation should call the dive is the condition of the dive site.

I agree with those who say that the diver is ultimately responsible for calling his dive, but once the dive is over, it is the responsibility of the dive operation to get the diver safely back aboard the boat. Excessive currents and swells can prevent a dive operation from the safe execution of its incumbent responsibilities. In the case of diminished ability to perform required duties I think the dive operation is well within not only its rights, but its obligations to call the dive.

 

[erichK]

There is letter titled "Read the Fine Print" in the "buddy lines" May 2005 issue of DIVE TRAINING magazine (Page 10), that is quite relevant to this discussion. In this letter, Wayne K. Philips of Huntington Beach CA explains why he refused to sign a Norwegian Cruise Lines waiver and chose not to dive rather than absolve "NCL and all related entities from even 'gross negligence'.

Perhaps I am so concerned about the issue of dive operator responsibility and waivers because I have enough legal experience to know that courts tend to deal with legalities rather than justice. Signing a release from even "gross negligence" could empower an operators to do whatever is most convenient.

Mr. Phillips certainly had his reasons: think of the pressure on the captain of an appartment-sized cruise ship was running behind schedule--crew time, fuel costs, amortization schedule, etc. --- versus a single diver unaccounted for! In the case of the opening post to this thread, perhaps economic factors and the potential immunity conferred by a waiver also influenced the operator to send out a boat with unknown divers to a challenging site under poor conditions.

Mr. Phillips also states his awareness that " I recognize that local laws may override any signed releases, but this cruise was also going out of U.S. territory and who knows what those laws are. ..." Much of our diving takes place in the territories of small, often poor countries with little legislation in place, and less power to enforce it on powerful foreign entities. (As was demonstrated by the attempts to gain some compensation from the Peter Hughes operation by the families of the 17 who died in Belize on the Wave Dancer...read these threads elsewhere on Scubaboard).

As Mr. Phililips suggests, we should all read "the fine print", and get copies of any waivers we will be asked to sign *before* we plunk down our money for a dive trip (and the airline tickets, Hotel accommodation , etc.)

In time, divers, too, will realize that there is little advantage to remaining a marginal daredevil subculture whose activities take place in a legal limbo.