What should a DM do in this situation?

[String]

IMO, with a paid DM, your hiring both. Depends entirely on the dive, the divers and the conditions, on how much of one or the other come into play.

Id disagree then - when a book a dive trip for the first few times im happy with a guide so i know the route, what to see and so on (and id expect a good surface briefing etc). However in the water id expect qualified divers to be able to look after themselves, otherwise youd hire an instructor or something

I know that from experience. Most qualified divers i have escorted to the surface would have been fine by themselves. Some needed me or a buddy along to assist in making a safe ascent. It is not always apparent at depth who will have troubles. Thats a major reason for a buddy system in the first place.

Again my solo surface thing im refereeing to maybe 30ft depth, boat and line clearly visible, warm water, no currents and so on and i really cant see a problem there. I wouldnt advocate it in low vis or other conditions. In tropical type waters the surfacing diver can see and be seen by the rest of the group if needed and as qualified they should quite happily be able to manage an ascent on their own - if not why are they diving as qualified? Again its back to the issue of do you want a guide or do you want a babysitter/instructor.

I ask the question again, do you have experience as a DM or group leader or are you basing your opinion only on personal accountability being a good thing?

Ive dived as cattle heard style groups when abroad (not an issue back home as its entirely independent buddy pairs) and have seen divers surface alone, with a buddy, pairs changing underwater and so on. You get to know quickly what to expect and as i said, ive got no problems with being changed underwater, being sent to surface from 30ft in clear sight of the boat and other divers alone nor anything else. Other people ive dived with have also accepted that. (In fact in greece this year i ended up with a regular buddy for 2 weeks and she was heavy on air and suggested quite happily they she'd return without me on running "low". The staff agreed to this - everyone was happy.) I still think that as professional divers you should be able to look after yourself and not have to rely on some guide to keep you out of trouble. If you ARENT capable of doing that you really ought not to be diving at all. Surfacing in clear waters from about 30ft with maybe 6 divers below is hardly solo diving and neither is following a group of 6 or so divers where 1 person has left that group.

Here in the US, if you knowingly send someone to the surface solo and they get hurt, you lose if they sue. Don't even bother carrying insurance to protect yourself. Because it will be worthless. Most policies have the minimum requirement of enforcing the buddy system. Most insurance providers today won't even blink an eye before they drop you. You would most likely be on your own in defending your actions.

If its a breach of guidelines then fair enough you can be sued. That'll be the same for any country. Insurance companies are fast to invalidate at the slightest chance. However if those are the guidelines i disagree with them but thats for a different topic/thread.

 

[Diver0001]

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I still think that as professional divers you should be able to look after yourself and not have to rely on some guide to keep you out of trouble. If you ARENT capable of doing that you really ought not to be diving at all.

Very true, I'm in total agreement.

But think of it this way.....by this definition there are a great many certified divers who really ought not to be diving at all.

Such as:
- the one too overwieght to get their own fins on.
- the one too inexperienced to jump off the back of a boat safely,
- the one certified 100 years ago with 10 lifetime dives,
- the frequent diver who have hardly ever been deeper than 15 metres
- the experienced warm water diver who have never been in cold turbid conditions,
- the diver who has never been alone,
- the alert and attentive diver with perfect buoyancy and good technique who has no experience outside of quarries.
- excessively macho divers,
- excessively timid divers
- etc. etc.

I can think of examples all day long.

The key thing is conditions. Anyone can be experienced in some conditions but not in others. I think it's unrealistic at best to expect all divers regardless of their training and/or experience to be able to deal with all conditions and whenever someone has hired you as a DM to guide them in unfamiliar conditions you are in some way responsible for their safety. Jon (or was it you) called that babysitting. Maybe it is. I think of it as excorting and orientating but the label doesn't matter. The idea that you're partially there to enhance saftey is key to the roll.

Not all divers choose to dive with a DM present for the safety thing, there are other good reasons to want it too but that doesn't take away the fact that some people want it and realistically speaking (regardless of how much we would like it not to be the case) some certified divers, in fact, actually aren't really experienced enough yet to be diving alone.

R..

 

[Scubaguy62]

The fact of the matter is that we seem to be placing all the eggs in the basket of a diver's qualifications. A number of certifications do not make one diver more qualified than the other. I don't mean to suggest that this is your ideal String, but the fact of the matter is that a number of certifications infer a greater qualification. It is only an inference and it should not be taken as law.

Let me play that number for a second, a DM is trained in diver supervision, among other things; a boat Captain (as it is an aircraft's Captain) is empowered with, and is the sole authority regarding the safety of the boat and its occupants. Heck, Air Force One's aircraft commander is the sole authority regarding the safety of the aircraft and its occupants when the aircraft is operating (Federal Aviation Regulation 91.1). Not even the President can tell the aircraft commander what to do regarding that subject. I mean, he could, but the aircraft commander would be justified to disobey if his/her judgment dictated otherwise.

We could infer that because a DM is trained, and qualified, in diver supervision, that said supervision could start by the DM, and the Capt. looking at the sign up sheet and assessing every diver's level of experience, making a mental, or written note of those divers who are less experienced than others. On the boat, the DM, or the Capt., could politely ask those lesser experienced divers about their procedures, hand signals, and so on, and based on the inference that the DM or Capt. are highly qualified individuals, make a final determination of whether those divers can do the dive, and how safe they can. This, IMO, is the inference pertaining qualifications. We all know it doesn't always happens that way. On the other hand, there is one more thing a diver should exercise and one which the DM and Capt. must exercise, and for which they are paid, JUDGMENT.

While a diver should take responsibility for his/her own actions, it is the responsibility of the DM and the Capt to ensure that diver makes it out alive. Otherwise, who do you think will get sued? IOW, if the DM signals the dive is being called because a diver is low on air, the other divers should comply and regretfully as it may be to them, call the dive also. If they don't, not only are they toying with their own safety and exercising poor judgment, they jeopardize the boat's crew.

While this is pure speculation being that I was not an eyewitness, IMO, the DM should have not sent the diver up alone. By doing so, he exercised poor judgment and acted negligently. The legal definition of negligence is what a reasonable and careful person knows or should know and knows, or should know to do, or not do.
Not only accepting the inference of the certification, but also demanding the judgment that is, or should be attached to the qualification, this DM screwed up IMO.

Semper Safe,

Rick

 

[Lightning Fish]

The theme of this thread seems to keep coming up. What exactly is the role of a DM? (Note, I am not a DM).

A DM is a professional. A profession is a "vocation or calling, one that involves some branch of advanced learning", Canadian Oxford Dictionary. A DM possesses a level of knowledge and understanding that the general dive public does not have. Particularily, what can go wrong, anticipating what can go wrong, and providing safe solutions to what can or has gone wrong. Thus, they are relied upon to not only be guides but to look out for a diver's wellfare.

I have dove with people that expect a DM to "hold their hand" through the dive. Me, I think I have to be responsible for myself. But I am aware of a DM's greater knowledge and I expect them to act in a professional manner and to provide assistance when required.

From the original post, it looks like the DM was in a conflict of interest, trying to be a buddy and a guide at the same time.

As for a qualified diver being responsible for themselves. I agree, but being a qualified diver is also being a good buddy. And I don't think a good buddy would send their buddy off alone. Being a qualified diver is another theme that keeps coming up on this board --> that is, having a c-card does not neccesarily translate to being a qualified diver.

Just my 2 bits.

Bill

 

[Lightning Fish]

While this is pure speculation being that I was not an eyewitness, IMO, the DM should have not sent the diver up alone. By doing so, he exercised poor judgment and acted negligently. The legal definition of negligence is what a reasonable and careful person knows or should know and knows, or should know to do, or not do.

I think this supports the point I tried to make in my previous post. "a reasonable and careful person knows or should know and knows, or should know to do, or not do." A DM is much more than a reasonable person, they are a trained professional in the scuba diving profession and should know what to do.

A DM should be expected to be responsible for their actions in the same manner that you expect a doctor, dentist, or engineer to be responsible for their actions and professional conduct.

Bill

 

[MikeFerrara]

The theme of this thread seems to keep coming up. What exactly is the role of a DM? (Note, I am not a DM).

The role of a DM will depend on the dive and the divers and can range from surface supervision to hand holding.

The specific role that the DM will play on any dive should be completely explained as part of the dive briefing. All DM's know this because the process of determining the role they'll play on a dive and briefing divers on those decisions is a significant part of DM training.

 

[TCDiver1]

Again my solo surface thing im refereeing to maybe 30ft depth, boat and line clearly visible, warm water, no currents and so on and i really cant see a problem there. I wouldnt advocate it in low vis or other conditions. In tropical type waters the surfacing diver can see and be seen by the rest of the group if needed and as qualified they should quite happily be able to manage an ascent on their own - if not why are they diving as qualified?

You wouldn't think so but we agree on more than we disagree on String. The last thing any group leader wants to do is babysit a group of divers the entire dive. Count me as part of the group that wants to enjoy my dive too! But that does not alleviate me of any responsiblities i may have as a group leader.

In the conditions you outlined above i would be just as concerned about my safety as that diver i'm sending up solo. That is assuming that i've accepted the diver is comfortable doing the solo ascent.

The concern for myself would be if that diver did get to the surface and have a problem, now i have to make a fast ascent from 30 feet to assist and leave the rest of the group. Not too good for me or possibly the group.

However, the reality is, i might have to do that anyway even if the diver has a buddy present, if that buddy is unable to render effective assistance. So the best way to make sure i'm not put in that situation is to surface the entire group at the same time and be done with it. Sometimes it sucks to be group leader.

The reason i ask if you have ever lead groups is that from my experience, it is far from an exact science. You learn to expect and/or try to anticipate the unexpected. Things just have a way of happening without warning.

 

[Lightning Fish]

Thanks Mike, but it was a rhetorical question. Since you did answer, if the DM's role is supposed to be detailed during the pre-dive briefing, why are there so many threads commenting/complaining about what a DM should have done when a situation arises? Especially if it was discussed during the briefing. It suggests to me that divers either don't pay attention to the pre-dive briefing or the pre-dive briefings are not being adequately conducted.

Bill

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks Mike, but it was a rhetorical question. Since you did answer, if the DM's role is supposed to be detailed during the pre-dive briefing, why are there so many threads commenting/complaining about what a DM should have done when a situation arises? Especially if it was discussed during the briefing. It suggests to me that divers either don't pay attention to the pre-dive briefing or the pre-dive briefings are not being adequately conducted.

Bill

I'd guess it's a little of both. I think some DM's might not give the best briefings and at the same time some some divers either don't listen or don't understand the briefing that is given.

A DM providing a service to a bunch of certified divers may give divers enough rope to hang themself. I can imagin the diver who pretty much ignores the DM until they need something and then isn't happy with what the DM does.

For instance maybe the DM briefes the site and suggest max depth and time but beyond that lets divers plan their own dive. Maybe the DM also explains that they'll be in the water pointing things out to whoever is interested. Maybe the DM is going to just go down long enough to point out one key attraction after checking the anchor and then head back to the boat. Remember these are all qualified divers so the DM doesn't have to hold their hands. The DM doesn't need to pick buddy teams. They're divers let them pick their own buddies, right? He/she is just providing information and a little extra in-water service.

Maybe the DM is only diving because some one needs a buddy. In that case the DM should stay with their buddy and the others are on their own.

If a diver needs to surface and their buddy doesn't follow, who's fault is it? They teach divers how to end a dive in their OW class.

I think maybe there's too much follow the leader going on.

 

[Diver0001]

Thanks Mike, but it was a rhetorical question. Since you did answer, if the DM's role is supposed to be detailed during the pre-dive briefing, why are there so many threads commenting/complaining about what a DM should have done when a situation arises? Especially if it was discussed during the briefing. It suggests to me that divers either don't pay attention to the pre-dive briefing or the pre-dive briefings are not being adequately conducted.

Bill

*supposed to be* is the operative thing here. In fact it should be a prominent part of the briefing but it often isn't or it often isn't recognisable.

R..