When does diving become "ridiculous"?

[boulderjohn]

There is little left to be explored on Mt. Everest anymore ... and anyone with the wealth to purchase a professional guide can attempt it. Many fail ... many don't return. The upper slopes of Everest are littered with the bodies of people who thought they were well-enough prepared. Almost 300 people have died on that mountain since Sir Edmund summited it 63 years ago ... many of them amateurs who had no business being there in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

...and the funny thing is that, unlike every cave diving accident, there is never any talk of closing that dangerous mountain.

 

[Stoo]

All diving has risks. Again, poke your nose in to the accidents forum.
Maybe you should have that conversation with her.

This is correct, and it wouldn't even surprise me to learn that "normal" dives have a similar accident rate as this more "extreme" stuff...

Storker, if you have been married for 26 years, presumably you aren't a particularly young man. In our neighborhood, we are seeing repeated incidences of age/health related accidents and fatalities. My buddy of 35 years is temporarily out of diving due to a bit of a health issue which hopefully can be dealt with.

This "sport" is unlike most others in that no matter what happens to a diver, (equipment failure, health issue, judgement error etc.) the ramifications are more severe since we are underwater... This alone compounds the seriousness of "everything". Add a few hundred feet of depth and 1500 feet of lateral travel to get up, and even a minor issue becomes a huge problem if not dealt with properly.

As "irrelevant" as this most recent EN accident is to my diving, it serves to remind me that none of us are invincible. By all accounts, these two guys did everything right, and yet still suffered a terrible fate. As the old saying goes: "There but for the Grace of God go I"...

 

[Stoo]

...and the funny thing is that, unlike every cave diving accident, there is never any talk of closing that dangerous mountain.

They also seem to accept that it's fine to leave their mate's bodies scattered all over the mountain, citing "too risky" to others to recover them.

I'd submit that recovering a body from Everest is no more risky than what was performed in EN. It just takes longer. Our sport is filled with stories of heroic people recovering their fellow divers and "we" as divers should be proud of that.

I remember many years ago, a friend of mine and his buddy were diving the Gunilda in Lake Superior (260 ffw and damn cold) on air. The buddy died following a reg freeze-up. Police were called. They brought in a commercial diving company and their ROV to search. After days without success, my friend returned to the site, alone, at night. He dove and recovered his friend. That's insane.

 

[Centrals]

There is little left to be explored on Mt. Everest anymore ... and anyone with the wealth to purchase a professional guide can attempt it. Many fail ... many don't return. The upper slopes of Everest are littered with the bodies of people who thought they were well-enough prepared. Almost 300 people have died on that mountain since Sir Edmund summited it 63 years ago ... many of them amateurs who had no business being there in the first place.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sir Edmond Hillary and Tenzing Norgay climbed together.
The local won't be very happy if climbers stop coming to climb those big mountains.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yes, I understand the allure of seeing these amazing spaces (even if I don't want to do it myself). But at some point, as the profile gets pushed further and further and the margin for error gets less and less, we leave the world of reasonable dive plans. Surely, there is SOME point where the plan transitions from "pushing the envelope" to "ridiculous". There is no end to what CAN be attempted, but to shut down the conversation by implying that our very liberty is at stake is just a slippery slope argument.

I tried to write an article on this topic, and I went through a number of drafts before shelving it. I even asked for input in the Instructor to Instructor forum, and even the very good ideas I got there did not get me to my goal. Where indeed does one draw the line? How can you tell when you are going past your limits? Here are two examples of a similar decision by two widely different individuals.

Agnes Milowka was a celebrated cave diver famous for taking what many people thought were unnecessary risks. Her web site, still up years after her death, celebrates a moment she nearly died. She finally did die trying to extend the line on a cave system in Australia. She found herself in a situation where she could not fit through a restriction with her sidemounted tanks, which is saying a lot because she was most famous for wriggling her petite frame through seemingly impossible holes. She therefore removed one of her tanks and went through with just one. She was unable to get back in time to the one she left behind.

In contrast, I am not remotely celebrated for any diving accomplishments. While we were planning a wreck dive to a little deeper than 200 feet max, my buddy suggested we swim through a hole in the bottom of the hull that was made when they blew the charges to sink the wreck. He had heard it was a really good experience. The only problem was that we would not be able to fit through while carrying our decompression bottles. We would have to leave them outside the wreck, navigate through the wreck and out an upper deck in order to get back to the bottles before beginning the ascent. Nope! I would have nothing to do with a plan like that. That is not even close to the level of challenge Milowka faced, and the odds that we could get back to our bottles were excellent, but those odds were not good enough for me. Maybe someday I will be willing to stage my deco bottles under those circumstances, but I was not there then, and I am not there now. I stage bottles in a cave without giving it a second thought, but that is because I know I will be coming back that way again, and if I don't, the loss of those bottles will be the least of my problems.

 

[Storker]

All diving has risks.

Every activity has risks. Some (like extreme cave diving) more than others (like no-stop diving in benign sites). Everyone has to find their personal risk acceptance limit; I know roughly where mine is.

Storker, if you have been married for 26 years, presumably you aren't a particularly young man. In our neighborhood, we are seeing repeated incidences of age/health related accidents and fatalities.

I also hike in alpine areas, with crappy to non-existent phone coverage. I might just as well have my heart attack there as under water, and my chances will be quite comparable.

 

[Centrals]

They also seem to accept that it's fine to leave their mate's bodies scattered all over the mountain, citing "too risky" to others to recover them.

I'd submit that recovering a body from Everest is no more risky than what was performed in EN. It just takes longer. Our sport is filled with stories of heroic people recovering their fellow divers and "we" as divers should be proud of that.

You cannot be serious!
There are plenty stories about climbers perished when they tried to help their fellow companions in distress.
Example: The attempt rescue of Dudley Wolfe on K2 in 1939 resulting the dead of Wolfe and two brave Sherpas!
There are also plenty stories about climbers refused to abandoned his/her partners resulting the demise of everyone one.
Divine intervention seldom apply in scuba diving. But in high altitude climbing the climbers are facing the elements head on.

 

[CptTightPants21]

I tried to write an article on this topic, and I went through a number of drafts before shelving it. I even asked for input in the Instructor to Instructor forum, and even the very good ideas I got there did not get me to my goal. Where indeed does one draw the line? How can you tell when you are going past your limits? Here are two examples of a similar decision by two widely different individuals.

Agnes Milowka was a celebrated cave diver famous for taking what many people thought were unnecessary risks. Her web site, still up years after her death, celebrates a moment she nearly died. She finally did die trying to extend the line on a cave system in Australia. She found herself in a situation where she could not fit through a restriction with her sidemounted tanks, which is saying a lot because she was most famous for wriggling her petite frame through seemingly impossible holes. She therefore removed one of her tanks and went through with just one. She was unable to get back in time to the one she left behind.

In contrast, I am not remotely celebrated for any diving accomplishments. While we were planning a wreck dive to a little deeper than 200 feet max, my buddy suggested we swim through a hole in the bottom of the hull that was made when they blew the charges to sink the wreck. He had heard it was a really good experience. The only problem was that we would not be able to fit through while carrying our decompression bottles. We would have to leave them outside the wreck, navigate through the wreck and out an upper deck in order to get back to the bottles before beginning the ascent. Nope! I would have nothing to do with a plan like that. That is not even close to the level of challenge Milowka faced, and the odds that we could get back to our bottles were excellent, but those odds were not good enough for me. Maybe someday I will be willing to stage my deco bottles under those circumstances, but I was not there then, and I am not there now. I stage bottles in a cave without giving it a second thought, but that is because I know I will be coming back that way again, and if I don't, the loss of those bottles will be the least of my problems.

I don't think that is crazy at all. A good group of people have died or gotten in serious trouble by leaving bottles OUTSIDE the wreck, the Rouses are probably the most well known. The only way I would accept that as a dive plan would be if an extra set of deco bottles were tied off on the ascent line at 20ft, and depending on the layout and conditions another set stored on the opposite side of the wreck.

 

[CptTightPants21]

They also seem to accept that it's fine to leave their mate's bodies scattered all over the mountain, citing "too risky" to others to recover them.

I'd submit that recovering a body from Everest is no more risky than what was performed in EN. It just takes longer. Our sport is filled with stories of heroic people recovering their fellow divers and "we" as divers should be proud of that.

I remember many years ago, a friend of mine and his buddy were diving the Gunilda in Lake Superior (260 ffw and damn cold) on air. The buddy died following a reg freeze-up. Police were called. They brought in a commercial diving company and their ROV to search. After days without success, my friend returned to the site, alone, at night. He dove and recovered his friend. That's insane.

Although I somewhat agree, it is not a fair comparison. In Scuba, we have air and buoyancy to do all the heavy lifting for us, not so in mountaineering. In Scuba, you get a little winded you stop, take some deep breathes, calm yourself, and odds are it will be ok. Even if you can't do it, you can leave and come back in another dive. In mountaineering, you overexert yourself, you may very well be unable to recover.

 

[Stoo]

Although I somewhat agree, it is not a fair comparison. In Scuba, we have air and buoyancy to do all the heavy lifting for us, not so in mountaineering. In Scuba, you get a little winded you stop, take some deep breathes, calm yourself, and odds are it will be ok. Even if you can't do it, you can leave and come back in another dive. In mountaineering, you overexert yourself, you may very well be unable to recover.

True enough... but mountaineers have gravity and slippery snow! ;-) I don't for a second think it would be easy to recover a fallen climber, but I also think that they are left there far too easily. It's almost like the bodies add a ghoulish "decoration" to the mountain which adds to the climb somehow.

One of the things we "regulars" in Tobermory noticed years ago, is that fatalities are good for business.... Yes, you read that properly. In the weeks following a well-publicized fatality, the shops' phones start ringing and callers want to go the specific wreck where the accident occurred. Twisted, but true.