Where's the sin

[The Chairman]

The myth of the horizontal off gassing study MAY have been made up by someone who, being well intended, did not understand the true reason behind maintaining a horizontal position.

I really have no beef what-so-ever with doing your safety stop horizontally. This is partly due to the fact, that this is the attitude that my gear puts me in naturally, and partly due to wanting to not have huge ups and downs. As for fastek buckles, you won't find them on my BP and wings either.

My real beef is with made up reasons for doing something. Some people just HAVE to justify the way they dive, even to the point of inventing LAME logic to do so. No one knows everything (not even me! :tease: ) (Yes, you can quote me on that) (but stop grinning) Sometimes you are given lame information by people you trust (check out the NitrOx thread on the mechanics of breathing) and I for one accept that as inevitable. Just because I expose the illogic in an argument, does NOT necessarily mean I fully disagree with a particular person... just the way they got to their conclusion. BTW, the crusades were probably "well intentioned".

But... why get sidetracked on the "minutia" as MHK calls it when there has never been a documented injury or death attributed to a failed fastek buckle? It is my ever so humble opinion that injuries are very rarely caused by a diver's gear. Inattention, stupidity, inadequate training and taking chances probably cause more injuries and deaths than ALL of the other causes combined by a factor of ten.

But… if you are going to join an army, then you had better get into proper uniform. It’s a given that you may not understand it fully, but you still need to do it. The drill sargeants have a ton of reasons for it. Some of these reasons are worthy while some are fallacious. It really doesn't matter as long as you put on the uniform the way they want it worn. Why put yourself at a disadvantage from the start? You risk alienating your instructor or at the very least distracting him from how you are doing your skills. Humble yourself and learn from your teacher. It's all good.

 

[sheck33]

NetDoc once bubbled...
Just a bit of logic about something illogical...

If your instructor has a thing against OMS... don't dive it! Why put yourself through the constant angst of diving a "BC non grata" with that instructor? You will distract him from what is really important... your skills!

dont dive it BC non grata
if my instructor doesnt like my Halcyon wing or OMS tankvalve or whatever else because he/she doesnt like the brand that instructor can go to h.e.l.l., jeez talk about being unprofessional ;-0

as long as the gear is functional and adequate for the job you can use it.

hey Netdoc you werent serious were you

 

[RichLockyer]

sheck33 once bubbled...
if my instructor doesnt like my Halcyon wing or OMS tankvalve or whatever else because he/she doesnt like the brand that instructor can go to h.e.l.l.

Within limits.

Show up for a GUE class with an OMS wing and if it has the bungees on it you will be borrowing a non-bungee wing for the class.

Same for split fins.

 

[sheck33]

RichLockyer once bubbled...

Within limits.

Show up for a GUE class with an OMS wing and if it has the bungees on it you will be borrowing a non-bungee wing for the class.

Same for split fins.

But now we are talking reasons other than mere brandname. They dont want you to use bungees it is not the OMS brand that is the problem etc etc.

 

[The Chairman]

we don't live in a perfect and completely logical world. Really.

Each and everyone one of us has faults and shortcomings (me probably being the worst of all). Some of these are expressed in some individuals as an illogical rejection of certain items including gear choices.

Finding a good instructor is tough. You might need to put up with a bit of "crap" in order to get one suitable. I bought my second set of wings just because I know that MOST cave instructors hate the "Bungeed Wings o' Death". I have enough foresight and acumen to NOT cause controversy where it might have a negative effect on my training experience. It's part of the "Let Sleeping Dogs Lie" theory of diver training. You don't have subscribe to that theory, but I do. So yes... I am serious.

 

[JeffAustin]

NetDoc once bubbled...
BTW, my idea of cold is a 68 degree spring,

that's what I thought!

 

[cornfed]

Boogie711 once bubbled...
Even aside from in the water - conduct this simple test.

Lay down a nylon belt with stainless steel buckle, beside an OMS harness with a fastex buckle.

From 18 inches, drop an LP104 on both buckles.

Now dive.

Any questions?

Charlie99 once bubbled...
What was the result of this test on your reg and mask?

Think about it this way... The tank is attached to the BC so you're more like to have the tank near the BC and hence more likely to drop it on the BC. You're less likely to drop the tank on your regulator because the two never get near each other... umm... err... wait a second...

This sounds a lot like the guy who complained that his Tranpac had a lot of failure points because it broke after he slammed it in a car door!


Cornfed

 

[cornfed]

NetDoc once bubbled...

Those who don't like fastek buckles have probably never had to do a real rescue. They really facilitate extracting an unconscious diver from their BC. I love them for that alone.

If your BC doesn't come off easily I'm going to cut if off you.

After I get you out of the water I'm going to (If you need CPR) cut your exposure suit off, too.

[addition]
After reading further I noticed you addressed the issue of cutting someone out of their BC.
[/addition]

Cornfed

 

[caveseeker7]

Most of the diving I do in SoCal is from dive boats. I have yet to see a shoulder buckle being crashed by a tank. Unless your equipment is lying on its front or back, shoulder buckles are off the ground. Now regulators, gauges and computers are a different story. They frequently dangle, or for gauges are attached so low they're still on the ground. Plenty of that stuff dammaged on boats when incosiderate divers don't watch out when doffing their gear. I wrap everything around the top of the tank and clip to the shoulder D-rings as soon as I take it off.

As for the Fastex issue, even Halcyon uses them on their weight pockets. Don't get me wrong, I like that better than just velcro, but their location is close to the ground when on the boat deck and I think more prone to damage than a shoulder buckle. I sure wouldn't want to loose half my lead at depth ... that's why you check equipment before the dive.

On an OMS wing you can just take off the bungies, and voila: instant correctness.
Fins - I have several, including splits. They work perfectly fine for some stuff, but currents and frog kick are not among them. I choose the equipment I need for a location or a task. Tasks includes training, and if splits are not okay, I don't use them. Just as I don't use twins with stages and cave reels to clean the boat hull or get rid of junk around the props.

 

[curtmdavis]

I was kind of thinking that when I posted this that I would try to stear clear of the fastex issue. Unfortunately it seems to be a hotter topic than I thought. I totaly understand that they CAN fail as that they are made of plastic and are not immune from sudden attack by steel 120's. The real question I was trying to get to was regardless of the fastex buckes of death, was what seems to be the problem with this BC as seems to be so closely related to the BP and wing when rigged with a backplate inserted into the pocket. I currently am diving one and have been for a month or so. I have also dove with a BP wing, but not for an extensive period of time. ( was not a big fan of it )
The only thing I have heard other than it had fastex buckels is the fact that the padding adds some bouyancy to the harness that has to be overcome or compensated for by more weight. I can understand that this would be a draw back for the purist of heart attempting to becom one with the Hogarthian theory of diving.
I also dont want anyone thinking that I'm going to come bursting into my DIR-F class 10 minutes late addorned with bungied wings and split fins, as fun as that might be to do on somebody elses time. Besides, I'm taking this class mainly to learn some finning techniques, some new skills not presented to me by other classes, and maybe some hose routing techniques in hopes that I will walk out of the class with a new enlightenment of some kind. I could care less if I pass, fail get laughed, called a stroke or any of that.
I'm taking this class for my own education. Anyhow, I would like to thank everyone who participated in this discussion.