which dive tables?

[MikeFerrara]

The real area where all tables currently fail are on repeat day repeat dives.

Most of the "undeserved hits" are by people on multi-day dive trips and so on.
Yes they're technically within the tables but the tables are really stretched.

I think most of those hits are to divers using computers.

1, On vacation people drink and stay up late.
2, People finally have the time and money to go diving when they are fat and middle aged.
3, Maybe one or two even dive goofy profiles and have trouble controling their ascent rate.

I don't believe in undeserved hits.

 

[Walter]

Personally the bottom times on most of the tables aren't THAT divergent,

Yes they are, especially when you look at repetitive dives. The RDP scares me. I would never use it.

 

[The Chairman]

This might be a bit of a stretch given the numbers of "undeserved" hits out there.

I disagree with the concept of "undeserved hits". Not fully understood is probably more appropriate. Divers take chances and increase their susceptibility to DCS all the time and then rationalize their behaviors. Sick, congested, dehydrated, tired, hung over, cold, exercise and much, much more all have a direct bearing on on your predisposition to taking a "hit". Too many divers hide behind this undeserved hit malarky because they don't want to admit that their actions have caught up with them. Denial: not just another river in Egypt.

 

[The Chairman]

The RDP scares me. I would never use it.

The RDP is fine. I don't suppose you have any clinical or empirical evidence to show us why it is so dangerous?

Actually, as the REAL Doctor pointed out: the tables are just great. It's the HUMAN error that scares me. People are wildly inaccurate about WHEN they entered the water. They do a lot of guestimation rather than recording. This is why I prefer computers over tables: automatic tracking of the time/depth continuum. People often point to computers as a "weak link" in your diving gear because computers can fail. No, the wink link is almost always the diver who fails at something pretty much every dive.

 

[Walter]

Pete,

First, I never claimed to be a doctor, real or imagined. Please don't imply I did. BTW, the "REAL Doctor" was intimately involved in developing the RDP, of course he believes they are "just great." In all fairness to him, I don't believe he used that term.

I never said the RDP is dangerous, I said it scares me. I have reasons, but no evidence. Some folks are scared of the dark, others are scared of sharks. I'm scared of the RDP. Seems most DCS hits happen when making repetivive dives, especially on multiple days. In the late 80s, when this was getting lots of press, PADI was publishing US Navy tables with "PADI" printed on them. There were several law suits against PADI at the time for publishing "unsafe tables." At that time, ABC news aired an investigation into the situation. I felt (I still do) PADI got a bum rap in the program. People were claiming to be "well within" the tables when they got bent, but they were pushing the tables to the limits. They were within the limits, but they were diving them very aggressively, not something PADI advocated. PADI was not to blame for them getting bent. At this time PADI came out with the RDP, in fact it was mentioned several times in the ABC program.

People were rarely getting bent after a single dive, they were more commonly getting bent after repetitive dives, so what did the RDP do? It reduced the NDL for single dives and increased the NDLs for repetitive dives. Yeah, that scares me. Is it safe? No dive table is safe. Is it safe enough? That's a decision we all have to make. Other tables readily available have shorter NDLs for single dives as well as repetitive dives. They are, by definition, safer than the RDP. Are the overly conservative? Perhaps, but I prefer them, they don't scare me.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete,

First, I never claimed to be a doctor, real or imagined. Please don't imply I did.

That was actually a reference to ME. I am NOT a medical doctor. I used to heal sick networks so I am the "NetDoc". Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, the "REAL Doctor" was intimately involved in developing the RDP, of course he believes they are "just great." In all fairness to him, I don't believe he used that term.

Apparently, he was involved in TESTING them, or so it appears from his post. He recorded the evidence that convinced HIM. That he appears to have better credentials than both you and I combined says a lot.

I never said the RDP is dangerous, I said it scares me. I have reasons, but no evidence.

Thus clarified I can accept it at face value. I try to base most of my decisions on facts rather than feelings.

I still feel that the critical problem with tables are the divers using them. Quite often they are not used and when they are, they are often based on mere guesstimates of time. I don't trust tables period.

 

[trtldvr]

On the RDP I have a problem with special rules regarding minimum surface intervals for divers in the x,y, and z pressure groups. I have seen far too many DM candidates miss the questions regarding these rules on test to believe that "Joe vacation diver" who surprisingly is trying to do the right thing and actually looks at a table would have any chance at all to get it right.

 

[MikeFerrara]

That was actually a reference to ME. I am NOT a medical doctor. I used to heal sick networks so I am the "NetDoc". Sorry for the confusion.

Apparently, he was involved in TESTING them, or so it appears from his post. He recorded the evidence that convinced HIM. That he appears to have better credentials than both you and I combined says a lot.

Thus clarified I can accept it at face value. I try to base most of my decisions on facts rather than feelings.

I still feel that the critical problem with tables are the divers using them. Quite often they are not used and when they are, they are often based on mere guesstimates of time. I don't trust tables period.

I don't even remember the last time I heard or read about a diver getting bent while using a table. I don't have any current numbers handy but I think with most divers using computers that most of the divers who get bent are using computers.

Even with computers, I have to concede that the "problem" seems to be the diver and the misuse of the tool. I think it was well illustrated in the recent thread about rec divers doing decompression on their computers.

There may be to many cariables to get a handle on it but I haven't seen any evidence that computers have had any effect on "safet" at all. Personally, I don't trust them. LOL

 

[Azza]

I used to dive the RDP to the limits over multiple dives, day after day (often for up to 6 days in a row) and have never taken a hit. This was back in the days when I used to smoke roll-your-own tobacco with no filters.
I trust them...even now that I know better than to do that

Of course this doesnt mean you wont take a hit by doing the same...

 

[jeckyll]

Mike: You can make the computer follow tables if you have one that's adjustable. It's a tool and trusting it completely is a mistake IMO, but it can give accurate info about time and depth.

You can also dive tables that will throw your computer into 'fits'