JamesK
Contributor
Thanks guys!
Which post for DIR?
- Thread starter CincyBengalsFan
- Start date
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Let me add to the kudos for JamesK's reply.
OP
Sure have but not for years. I have gone in caves with a "1" cave diving instructor and cave certified divers. 1500' + ft. penatrations. This was years and years ago. I did not have a cave certification but they took me anyway. I had a blast. Absolutely loved it. However; If I new then what I know now I would never have done this. Even with my years of experience in the water. I still believe the donor should breath on a 7' ft. just like DIR but it should come of the left post instead of the right. Of course then you would need a side exhaust reg. So..It leads me back....It would be so simple for the manufacturers to retap the left post in the reverse manner. Why don't they just do it.
JamesK
Contributor
They do not do this because it would simply be fixing a problem that does not exist, unless you let it exist. Cave divers simply do not care about having to check their valve every once in a while. It is no big deal. Why fix a problem, only to make another problem. Oh, and what do I mean by another problem. How abou the problem of turning off your tank in error, when you meant to turn it on. All valves need to be STANDARDIZED. They all need to open inthe same direction.
WYDT
Contributor
Funny how the people who don't do the dives want to tell the people who do do the dives the "right" way to do it... then come up with all kinds of crazy schemes why "their way" is better...
If you're just trying to argue against "DIR" it's not going to work... evey cave diver I know (DIR or NOT) has his/her hoses configured with the long hose on the right post and the backup on the left. That way works best and James and others have outlined it very well here.
DSAO!!
Have to disagree here. "The same direction" can just as easily be "forward" - indeed, when reaching for valves in extremis, I'd be willing to wager that most people would more easily remember both valves "forward off" than having to remember which is left and which is right. And it is far easier for most folks to rotate two objects in the same direction - that is forward or backward - at the same time than "clockwise looking in" - if you don't believe it, just try to move your index fingers in circles on the same axis - like the valve knobs - in the "on" or "off" direction simultaneously in front of you.
The elimination of the "roll-off/break-off" failure mode is a worthwhile modification, and "same direction" makes at least as much sense "forward" as "right."
Rick
1) Why doesnt a manufacturer change the valves because you have some hair-brained idea?
Answer: Simple economics. Your easy retool would cost a company time and money. Also the end product would arguably be not different in function or marketability. We could break down all of the individual costs but its really of no value at this point.
2) The left post issue was well handled by James and I suggest you go apply all of your theory and show us a video of yourself diving and doing the safety drills to convince us. Ill take a look at what you have to offer. Other than that there are a lot of people with a lot of time in the water that are trying to get it through to you- so put in the time and check with us in a couple of years and let us know about your evolutionary left post long hose idea.
3) Even more disturbing to me is that Rick jumps in with some off the wall rant about something that none of us have the time nor the capacity to verify independently .how does that add value? Seriously, its like you just throw out some half thought out idea and then apply the buyer beware sign. Hows the steel doubles with wetsuit diving in the ocean going?
So ask questions but dont think youve stumbled blindly onto the Right way to do things by accident. There are too many intelligent people in this sport that have been thinking long and hard on these topics.
Rick wrote
Have to disagree here. "The same direction" can just as easily be "forward" - indeed, when reaching for valves in extremis, I'd be willing to wager that most people would more easily remember both valves "forward on" than having to remember which is left and which is right
Answer: Simple economics. Your easy retool would cost a company time and money. Also the end product would arguably be not different in function or marketability. We could break down all of the individual costs but its really of no value at this point.
2) The left post issue was well handled by James and I suggest you go apply all of your theory and show us a video of yourself diving and doing the safety drills to convince us. Ill take a look at what you have to offer. Other than that there are a lot of people with a lot of time in the water that are trying to get it through to you- so put in the time and check with us in a couple of years and let us know about your evolutionary left post long hose idea.
3) Even more disturbing to me is that Rick jumps in with some off the wall rant about something that none of us have the time nor the capacity to verify independently .how does that add value? Seriously, its like you just throw out some half thought out idea and then apply the buyer beware sign. Hows the steel doubles with wetsuit diving in the ocean going?
So ask questions but dont think youve stumbled blindly onto the Right way to do things by accident. There are too many intelligent people in this sport that have been thinking long and hard on these topics.
Rick wrote
Have to disagree here. "The same direction" can just as easily be "forward" - indeed, when reaching for valves in extremis, I'd be willing to wager that most people would more easily remember both valves "forward on" than having to remember which is left and which is right
Excuse me???
The elimination of the roll-off/break-off failure point is an "off the wall rant?" Or was it my suggestion that "forward" as a direction as opposed to "right" - which depends on which way you look at the valve - is a simpler concept to learn that you consider "off the wall?" I really am curious. From your post you feel that eliminating the roll-off/break-off failure point isn't worth considering - you're entitled to that opinion - but my opinion that it is something worthy of eliminating is hardly a "rant."
As for the cost of producing a "left hand" valve, that's a pretty standard item already in other applications; the cost would be minimal. So, if you have some objection to a left post valve that wouldn't roll off, let's hear it. And please, try to keep it civil.
Rick
VTWarrenG
Guest
Unfortunately, I think GI3 might have it right this time:
You can't teach a pig to sing.
Diving is all about trade-offs -- there really is no "ideal solution" to this problem. Valves must be operational underwater, so that you can deal with first-stage failures. This means they can be rolled off. Sure, you could make the valves threaded backwards, but the thread direction is irrelevant if you just use proper techniques.
Now, putting the hose on either post has its own share of drawbacks. So far, the only benefit to left-post primary that has been offered is the ability of a diver to recognize left-post roll-off more easily, since he's actively breathing that post. That's a great advantage.
Unfortunately, the left-post primary comes with a much larger set of disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that, in an air-sharing situation, the recipient will be breathing off a post that can be rolled off, and will have no control over his own air supply. Another disadvantage is that it leaves the short hose on the "reliable" right post.
Breathing off the right post has only one disadvantage, and it's only a minor inconvenience: that the donor may discover his backup reg is dead after donating his primary. It's only an inconvenience for two reasons: 1) it shouldn't ever happen anyway, since a good diver checks his valves after bumping, and 2) any good diver has the ability to tun on his left post in a matter of seconds.
In general, THE ONLY DIVER WHO SHOULD EVER BE BREATHING FROM AN "UNRELIABLE" LEFT POST SHOULD BE THE DIVER WEARING IT. THEREFORE, THE BACKUP MUST GO ON THE LEFT POST.
bengalsmgtsucks, if you really disagree with the above clear, concise, unambiguous logic, the only reasonable conclusion is that you are incompetent. Perhaps you are? It's irrelevant, though.
Remember, folks... pigs.... singing. You can only try so hard.
- Warren
You can't teach a pig to sing.
Diving is all about trade-offs -- there really is no "ideal solution" to this problem. Valves must be operational underwater, so that you can deal with first-stage failures. This means they can be rolled off. Sure, you could make the valves threaded backwards, but the thread direction is irrelevant if you just use proper techniques.
Now, putting the hose on either post has its own share of drawbacks. So far, the only benefit to left-post primary that has been offered is the ability of a diver to recognize left-post roll-off more easily, since he's actively breathing that post. That's a great advantage.
Unfortunately, the left-post primary comes with a much larger set of disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that, in an air-sharing situation, the recipient will be breathing off a post that can be rolled off, and will have no control over his own air supply. Another disadvantage is that it leaves the short hose on the "reliable" right post.
Breathing off the right post has only one disadvantage, and it's only a minor inconvenience: that the donor may discover his backup reg is dead after donating his primary. It's only an inconvenience for two reasons: 1) it shouldn't ever happen anyway, since a good diver checks his valves after bumping, and 2) any good diver has the ability to tun on his left post in a matter of seconds.
In general, THE ONLY DIVER WHO SHOULD EVER BE BREATHING FROM AN "UNRELIABLE" LEFT POST SHOULD BE THE DIVER WEARING IT. THEREFORE, THE BACKUP MUST GO ON THE LEFT POST.
bengalsmgtsucks, if you really disagree with the above clear, concise, unambiguous logic, the only reasonable conclusion is that you are incompetent. Perhaps you are? It's irrelevant, though.
Remember, folks... pigs.... singing. You can only try so hard.
- Warren
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