Which post for DIR?

[roakey]

Another issue about the single example that BMS is basing his whole theory on...

We have two stressed-out divers, sharing air, one task loading a huge amount by taking off his cylinders. They’re at 3ATM in depth with 42cf of gas left, breathing at least 1 CF SCR (I’m being *very* generous here, probably more like 2 CF SCR) and they’re 850 feet from the entrance. They have *at best* 14 minutes of gas.

They were dead men swimming. Left post rolloff or not, they were both dead unless one “got rid” of the other.

To use people that had made that many mistakes leading up to the left post rolloff as an example why a right post primary is somehow “incorrect” is preposterous. The position that they got themselves into by the time the rolloff (or deliberately closed valve, who knows?) occurred demonstrates that they *should not* be used as any kind of “typical” example or situation.

Roak

 

[maddiver]

Rick-

Your idea and support of reinventing the wheel is the issue (especially when its been pointed out and beat to death the advantages). You talk about wagering on something that there exists no verification for. A behaviorial characteristic- care to bankroll that study. Also 'most' people are not cave divers and you indicate *most* people would see things in your light. Most people left to their own devices in a cave underwater would be in serious *%$#.

The production of such an item as you list below is not the issue, its the cost/value trade off. You own your own business right? Is this a prudent business move, BMS' idea? Care to dive into the specifics costs on the manifold retooling, remarketing, and redoing the technical manuals. If you think your idea will fly then put your money where your mouth is and put together a pitch and approach Scuba Pro....halcyon etc. The redirection of my post in an ineffective means of drawing attention from the real issue and the inherent safety of today's 'preferred' method is sad. If I stepped on your toes about the steel wetsuit diving comment.....and I never really did get a reply to that one....then I guess I should be sorry. But I firmly believe it is DIW to dive with your long hose on the left post and in a set of steel tanks with a wetsuit in openwater.....but that's just my opinion and you can dive any way you like.

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

Excuse me???
The elimination of the roll-off/break-off failure point is an "off the wall rant?" Or was it my suggestion that "forward" as a direction as opposed to "right" - which depends on which way you look at the valve - is a simpler concept to learn that you consider "off the wall?" I really am curious. From your post you feel that eliminating the roll-off/break-off failure point isn't worth considering - you're entitled to that opinion - but my opinion that it is something worthy of eliminating is hardly a "rant."
As for the cost of producing a "left hand" valve, that's a pretty standard item already in other applications; the cost would be minimal. So, if you have some objection to a left post valve that wouldn't roll off, let's hear it. And please, try to keep it civil.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by maddiver
Rick-

Your idea and support of reinventing the wheel is the issue (especially when its been pointed out and beat to death the advantages).

Which wheel is that? I simply suggested that putting a left handed valve on the left post would be a good idea - I'm not in the valve business, but I do know there are plenty of "clockwise-on" valves in existence, so it's probably not cost prohibitive to make one.

You talk about wagering on something that there exists no verification for. A behaviorial characteristic- care to bankroll that study. Also 'most' people are not cave divers and you indicate *most* people would see things in your light. Most people left to their own devices in a cave underwater would be in serious *%$#.

OK, I'll rephrase it - it'd be easier for me. And eliminating the roll-off, which, as Warren said so well, makes the left post in its current configuration "unreliable" is to me a good thing. Sure it's a change - and folks would have to practice using the new configuration. In my case that'd take about half a heartbeat to adopt the new, "forward off" left valve.

The production of such an item as you list below is not the issue, its the cost/value trade off. You own your own business right? Is this a prudent business move, BMS' idea? Care to dive into the specifics costs on the manifold retooling, remarketing, and redoing the technical manuals. If you think your idea will fly then put your money where your mouth is and put together a pitch and approach Scuba Pro....halcyon etc.

BMS's idea began with the ridiculous notion of putting the long hose on the left post as it exists today. That's a very bad idea, and my posts have been clear on that issue. The only proposal I find value in is making the left post a roll-on vice roll-off valve. There is no retooling of the manifold required (don't know how you'd think there was). All that's required is reversing the threads on the valve stem and the housing - cost next to nothing. The new valve could be covered on an errata page in the manuals... perhaps I will approach one of the manufacturers.

The redirection of my post in an ineffective means of drawing attention from the real issue and the inherent safety of today's 'preferred' method is sad.

I have no idea what you mean here - I was addressing only that part of your post that accused me of an "off the wall rant." Nothing more.

If I stepped on your toes about the steel wetsuit diving comment.....and I never really did get a reply to that one....then I guess I should be sorry. But I firmly believe it is DIW to dive with your long hose on the left post and in a set of steel tanks with a wetsuit in openwater.....but that's just my opinion and you can dive any way you like.

Nope - you didn't step on my toes at all with those comments - I agree with you completely on both points. Indeed, I don't foresee changing the long hose to the left post even if I do get the roll-on left valve. If I did that I'd have to shorten my short hose a little... wasted cost.
Rick

 

[JamesK]

Rick,

One thing about changing the way that a valve would roll off is what we, as in everyone, are conditioned for. Almost everything we do that is threaded is the old "righty tighty, lefty loosey". From opening a jar of peanut butter, to removing the bolts that hold our backplates on. We are basically conditioned into that situation. To me it is still an answer to a problem that does not exist. That is not saying you are wrong, or anything remotly like that, I simply disagree.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by JamesK
Rick,

One thing about changing the way that a valve would roll off is what we, as in everyone, are conditioned for. Almost everything we do that is threaded is the old "righty tighty, lefty loosey". From opening a jar of peanut butter, to removing the bolts that hold our backplates on. We are basically conditioned into that situation. To me it is still an answer to a problem that does not exist. That is not saying you are wrong, or anything remotly like that, I simply disagree.

I think you'll find you're using a few "left-handed" valves and connectors more frequently than you realize. They're common with oxygen equipment, propane bottles, bathroom fixtures. We even have an example of what I'm proposing in the manifold itself, which rotates forward to tighten, aft to loosen - it has left-handed threads on the right valve (it's lefty-tighty on the right valve). Changing the left post to a "forward off" valve would make the entire assembly consistent, with every piece rolling in the same direction for "tighten" or "off." And I think the elimination of the roll-off problem is worth the few moments of training to use the new equipment. I know I'd like it.
Change is always resisted. In this case, I think this minor change in equipment to eliminate a real hazard is worth the investment of effort in overcoming that resistance.
And we can certainly continue to disagree.
But if I can get my hands on a left-handed left post valve I'm gonna get it.
Rick

 

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

I But if I can get my hands on a left-handed left post valve I'm gonna get it.

Well, if you do, let me know. I would be willing to give it a try.

 

[WYDT]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

I think you'll find you're using a few "left-handed" valves and connectors more frequently than you realize. They're common with oxygen equipment, propane bottles, bathroom fixtures.

Rick, I don't think you'll ever see what you're talking about simply for the liability issue...

Imagine this scenario...

You're on a boat getting ready to do the ___ (insert fav deep wreck here)... you've got your doubles on and as you're standing there getting ready to step off the boat a crewmember (unknown to you) decides to check your valve for you so you don't sink to the bottom with your air turned off (or so he thinks)... you can imagine the rest of the scenario and the ensuing legal battle I'm sure and I'd bet that Scubapro and Halcyon can too....

It's simply not standard to have valves roll that way and if they start making valves that roll this way and that eventually it's gonna bite someone...

I'd rather they stay like they are (all scuba valves) and I'll just check mine often and make dang sure I can reach them. Practice, practice, practice and it's not a problem. I practice reaching and turning my valves on almost all my dives... no biggie.

DSAO!!

 

[WreckWriter]

with WYDT on this. I think the concept is good but I see way too many problems due to the familiarity that we all have with the current methods. I think the answer is in training and practice rather than in change in this case.

Tom

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by WYDT
You're on a boat getting ready to do the ___ (insert fav deep wreck here)... you've got your doubles on and as you're standing there getting ready to step off the boat a crewmember (unknown to you) decides to check your valve for you so you don't sink to the bottom with your air turned off (or so he thinks)...
-----------
I'd rather they stay like they are (all scuba valves) and I'll just check mine often

But Rob,
In your first scenario you only have to check for a roll-off once...
Rick

 

[Jeff M. English]

I tried the left post aft-to-open idea last night, (just on my living room floor and in 'pretend mode' as my left valve is just like all the other valves out there).

I agree with Rick, it's a natural thing to rotate both hands the same way. It does go against ingrained habit, but so do many things we adopt in diving. In this case I think an aft-to-open default could be learned as easily as any other option.

As far as the issue of well meaning help on the surface shutting down a valve... we ought to check those pesky valves once in a while anyway... right? And we should be breathing off the right post/long hose at that point anyway, right?

Oh well just my $.02, but Rick, if you do have any of those valves made, let me know

Always interested, (hesitantly) in a new idea.

P.S. as to the *actuall*, original question of left post vs. right post, right post-longhose-primary post solves more and bigger problems than it creates - valve checking not a biggie..., OOA buddy cutoff due to rolloff going through restriction and unable to signal me - REAL BAD.