Why do we hate the Air2?

[danvolker]

And now you are a psychic you can tell what the dive store owner is thinking and, of course, he is always trying to rip off the customer.

Wow!!! How you get this I have no idea....You do realize, I have plenty of friends who own dive shops, or run them, work in them, etc., and I would not have a thought like you just created.

There are certain constants in the world of retail sales. Each month, the shop or any other retailer, will have to make payroll, and pay bills. Each month, they expect and hope good sales will allow this to be painless.
Sales need to be made easy for the customer, and putting road blocks up to slow sales down, would be insane for any retailer.

I am just saying, that we can make this training and airshare drill thing a behavior the customers see as essential, regardless of what gear they use....and particularly "timely" when they buy a new piece of gear like an Air II.

Ignoring the potential of new divers to fail in an unpracticed first use of the Air II on their first real emergency, is not something I would think you are going for in this thread.

Maybe you dive in a harsher environment, where most of the divers have higher level skills...I don't know why your perspective is so different....But if you dove heavily off of the Keys, or south Florida, or Cayman, or cozumel, you would see large numbers of new divers without the skills to do a comfortable air share--even with the gear they learned with---and even without an emergency occurring.
This does not put fault on the manufacturer of air II.....This does not put the fault in the lap of a diveshop in Tennessee or Co....It puts the fault in the lap of the divers that have not practiced what they learned, and who are not thinking about the ramifications of changing the gear configuration.....If we agree on this, then what we are talking about is how you can get these divers to start drilling and learning....And I think the Dive shops or the boats are the most likely vehicle for success here. I do think the mfg should do the "Best Practices" video for YouTube though....and make that a tool for those who care.

Again, Octo or AirII, if people hadn't practiced OOA procedures, they will grab the first thing that comes in their sight, their buddy's primary SS. You all seem to just work very hard to find every fault with AirII, real or imagined.

First, and I'm smiling as I say this, you seem to be working pretty hard to imagine all of these Air II users having done drills and bought long hose primaries.....
I get exposed to an awful lot of divers every week, from all over the world, and most with Air II have a short primary. That's just the way it is I think.

And you are absolutely right...the OOA diver will be going for the primary in the AirII diver's mouth, more often than not. And my observation, is that in most cases, where the AirII diver has a short hose, the two can make it to the surface, but it is stressful because they are too close together with the short primary. That is ultimately the fault of the diver for not buying a longer primary, but with discussions like THIS ONE here on Scubaboard, I'd hope that this might change--that more of these Air II divers would run out and buy a longer primary hose...and many might even try some air share drills

 

[BennyM]

Then the problem is not the AirII. It would seem to me that if the diver is not trained, it would be actually better to use AirII since the OOA diver would grab the primary SS of the donor anyways. What I don't understand is why people here fault the AirII for training deficiencies and use this line of thinking in favor of Octo. AirII use in OOA situation is actually a much easier process and would be a more "natural" way especially considering insta-buddy and novice diver running out of air situations since the OOA diver would do the natural thing and grab the donor's primary SS.

 

[danvolker]

Then the problem is not the AirII. It would seem to me that if the diver is not trained, it would be actually better to use AirII since the OOA diver would grab the primary SS of the donor anyways. What I don't understand is why people here fault the AirII for training deficiencies and use this line of thinking in favor of Octo. AirII use in OOA situation is actually a much easier process and would be a more "natural" way especially considering insta-buddy and novice diver running out of air situations since the OOA diver would do the natural thing and grab the donor's primary SS.

Benny,
A very large number of students have been trained to donate the octopus, and they are VERY AFRAID to have the regulator pulled out of their mouth for any reason, on a 60 foot deep dive. This HAS TO BE addressed. With your scenario, they are freaked out of their minds, because they did not want to give up their primary....and now that they are both freaked out ( the formerly OOA new diver probably is quite freaked too) they have the stress of being too close together as they swim for the surface. If they get "too stressed", what will end up happening, is that one will either inflate the AirII owner's bc , or allow a BC to continue to become increasingly positively bouyant, to the point of rocketing them to the surface. You dont want that, and we dont either. They NEED to use a long hose primary, and many dont....and they need to practice donating the primary, as many NEVER have done it this way before, EVEN THOUGH IT REALLY IS THE BEST WAY.

 

[BennyM]

If they are incompetent and "freaked out of their minds," they would freak out when using octo. pony bottle, etc. If they are on the edge and lack sufficient training, they would "freak out" in any stressful situation and not just in an "AirII" situation. If these poorly trained divers started out ill trained and prepared, they would be even less prepared several months later after their training nothing but a vague memory in ANY stressful situation with Octo or AirII. Even if they have Octos., the OOA diver will just reach out to that nice sexy SS that is blowing bubbles directly in front of his eyes, the donor's primary SS.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And now you are a psychic you can tell what the dive store owner is thinking and, of course, he is always trying to rip off the customer.

That's not at all what he said ... he said there's a disconnect between training and sales, and that people who purchase this equipment were often (usually) trained to donate an octopus, and that with the purchase of a different configuration they often (usually) don't put much thought into the fact that the procedure for using it is no longer what they trained for.

Again, Octo or AirII, if people hadn't practiced OOA procedures, they will grab the first thing that comes in their sight, their buddy's primary SS. You all seem to just work very hard to find every fault with AirII, real or imagined.

... and you seem to just work very hard to keep promoting a popular training myth that often (usually) proves not to be true ... this one is right up there with the "mask on forehead" myth about what a stressed diver "will" do. The reality is that you don't have any damn idea what a stressed diver will do ... neither does anyone else, because we're all individuals and respond to stress differently. Yes, certainly you have to be prepared to deal with it if someone mugs you for your primary ... but there is no "will" about it ... you simply can't predict how they're going to behave until it happens.

How difficult is it for a diver to follow the instructions: "If you run out of air and need to share air with me, just grab the SS in my mouth"?

That's not my idea of good instruction ... I don't encourage my students to "grab" anything. Then again, I put real effort into training them not to run out of air in the first place. In the unlikely event that they do ... or they're diving with someone else who does, you don't want the OOA diver to be the one who decides which reg to take. That's putting a stressed diver in charge of the command decisions for the team ... which can lead to much bigger problems. It's much safer for the donor to decide which reg the OOA diver gets, and take prompt action to get it out in front of you.

I think that some here are trying to "show off" as good instructors and use all that way over used cliches about training and think nothing of blaming individual pieces of equipment or LDS for all of ills of the diving society.

Seems to me that you're the one who's into cliches ... since I don't see anyone doing anything except trying to share a viewpoint and provide reasons why they believe as they do.

That's what internet discussions are for, yanno ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

If they are incompetent and "freaked out of their minds," they would freak out when using octo. pony bottle, etc. If they are on the edge and lack sufficient training, they would "freak out" in any stressful situation and not just in an "AirII" situation. If these poorly trained divers started out ill trained and prepared, they would be even less prepared several months later after their training nothing but a vague memory in ANY stressful situation with Octo or AirII. Even if they have Octos., the OOA diver will just reach out to that nice sexy SS that is blowing bubbles directly in front of his eyes, the donor's primary SS.

You are being unfairly harsh......I have seen new divers in groups close to mine, obviously in an OOA related situation, and blasted over to them to interceed....on giving them the long hose, they calm down very quickly.
Anyway, I think I have spent enough time on this thread

 

[djtimmy77]

What if I dive with an Air2 and a pony bottle? Am I doomed? Would the folks that hate Air2's buddy with me?

I've supplied air on an OOG with my primary, I breathed off my Atomic SS1(thanks to my buddy's faulty AI computer which she no longer uses) and had no issues whatsoever. I do use a "standard" octo length hose on my primary.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What if I dive with an Air2 and a pony bottle? Am I doomed? Would the folks that hate Air2's buddy with me?

I've supplied air on an OOG with my Atomic SS1 before (thanks to my buddy's faulty AI computer which she no longer uses) and had no issues whatsoever. I do use a "standard" octo length hose on my primary.

I dunno if you're doomed, but your buddy probably is ... folks who use AI computers should use both an Air2 and a pony bottle ... just to be on the safe side ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

I think he should put the air II on the pony bottle ...maybe give it it's own little pony bc, and then in an emergency, the pony can take itself to the surface

 

[Rascally Rabbit]

So, you are saying that, at least, one member of a buddy team has to be at expert/pro level, to assure a safe ascent with an AIRII ?

No I'm saying just like with any piece of equipment the user must be knowledgable and practiced with it's use. In the case of the Integrated Octo it is the donor. Today with the popularity of this setup maybe it should be given as much time during OWC as a standard octo. I was exposed to both during my OWC and would suggest any diver taking OWC today that is not is being short changed. Someone who decides to dive with one should certainly take the time and effort to familiarize themselves with it. I also take the time to remind or show a new buddy what it is and inform them my primary is a donor. At this point for those practiced in it's use it is no different than the standard octo on a necklace.

So, where does that leave a newly qualified and/or naturally apprehensive diver?

This leaves them newly qualified and/or naturally apprehensive but that is still the same regardless. New divers need to put in the time i the sport to develope muscle memory, refine their skills from basic to advanced and lose the apprehension. They should be seeking out diving environments that do not increase task loading beyond what is manageable for them based on the training they received. Accidents do happen and training is an attempt to minimize their frequency and increase the chance of a positive outcome when they do.

Are you saying that AIRII should be avoided by divers who might panic if they use one?Hardly a great advert for AIRII.... of which one of my concerns is that it is liable to increase stress/panic.

Any piece of equipment should be avoided by those who might panic if they use one regardless of the pursuit. People make mistakes when they are panicked it's part of the human condition. We train and practice to prepared ourselves to overcome these natural responses. As dive pros we should be evaluating the divers we train and not certify them until we have given them the skills, knowledge and conditioning to overcome the panic. If we have serious doubts about a student we should be continue drilling them or advise them against continuing in the worst case. This piece of equipment is not different on this score. I see no reason to panic trying to use one unless you've never done it before and then it is just fear of the untried.

And yet so many divers are stating that they aren't comfortable with an AIRII.

So should we imply from this that those divers that do dive with them are comfortable. That seems like a lot of satified divers. Both experience and some less so.

When compared to a standard AAS, that doesn't have 'any' limitations?

And as stated before there is nothing wrong with working within limitations. Many divers imposed a variety of limitations on themselves within the sport. I myself prefer to dive reefs and take pictures the majority of my recreational dives have this self imposed limit. Based on this the majority of my gear has been selected. Like many divers though I have alternate gear in my collection that allows me to make dives that will be of different profiles. The integrated octo does fit my needs for the majority of my diving and as such I choose to use it the majority of my dives.

I thought the only reason for using an AIRII was to reduce hoses. Now you are saying the LPI/AAS hose has to be longer (for the donor) and the primary hose has to be longer (for the victim).

That kinda seems to defeat the purpose?!?

Not what I'm saying at all. Just as with other pieces of equipment adjusting certain aspects may be required to optimize it for the individual diver. Just like changing the mouthpiece of a standard second stage, using a strap cover on your mask or change from standard to spring straps on your fins. Changing the characteristics of the hoses may solve a minor annoyance when using this otherwise adequate device. So no these hoses don't require changing it is a choice for fit and comfort like so many we make when choosing our gear.

Even if they do have a surplus of convenient dumps... it's a lot of multi-tasking for the donor, who is also maintaining contact with the victim, judging ascent rates, dealing with stress etc etc



Which you won't be in, because you are using an AIRII.

Even a newly certified diver should be at a minimum level of comfort and bouyancy control before attaining their cert card. Being aware of all the dumps on the BCD and how to use them should be a given for even the holiday diver. Again this comes down to training and practice if we as dive pros are giving away cert cards before a student earns them or as ops allowing diver that have no recent experience to dive then it is our responsibility and not the gear.

Wishful thinking. At a pro level maybe... but for a newly graduated OW student, or occasional holiday diver....

As I said in an earlier post, it is unfair to merit the debate based on your own capabilities, if you are a seasoned, pro-level diver.



You mentioned panic before. Are you aware of the sort of stresses that cause novice divers to panic

I'm sorry but this is not pro level diving. This is a few basic skills used together with a hint of anziety thrown in. Panic is something that we as pros attempt to address and minimize early in training. It should be the exception and not the rule for a well trained diver. If as a pro level diver you see new OW divers is such low regard maybe that is something you need to address in another thread. I don't think I'm expecting too much from any student I have worked with or any I will certify in the future.

For OW students or those newly certified divers if you have reservations about your abilities to handle an OOA situation with any of the gear discussed here please see your instructor to take care of this shortcomming in your training.