Wing size for 5mm wetsuit aluminum 80

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the issue with doing it geared up, or even just you in the wetsuit, is most divers do not have the ability to exhale completely and not overbreathe which leads to a constant 4-6lbs of being overweight.

Got it. I understood all that.

But, at the same time, it seems like the result (for "most" divers - your words) of following your advice would be getting in the water 4 - 6 lbs too light (for their ability to breathe properly), and the response to that from you is "you must adapt your breathing (aka learn to breathe properly) to make the weight you're carrying work for you."

I would have thought it would be better to start with that extra 4 - 6 pounds and then reduce it over time as you learn to breathe properly and no longer need the extra weight - so the diver can actually hold a safety stop at the end of a dive (where they will most likely have a near-empty tank).

Your post seems to say "calculate the correct weight to dive a neutral rig and only use that much - unless you have a reason for extra, like teaching, working, etc.. If you can't hold a safety stop, too bad. Learn to breathe correctly."
 
Got it. I understood all that.

But, at the same time, it seems like the result (for "most" divers - your words) of following your advice would be getting in the water 4 - 6 lbs too light (for their ability to breathe properly), and the response to that from you is "you must adapt your breathing (aka learn to breathe properly) to make the weight you're carrying work for you."

I would have thought it would be better to start with that extra 4 - 6 pounds and then reduce it over time as you learn to breathe properly and no longer need the extra weight - so the diver can actually hold a safety stop at the end of a dive (where they will most likely have a near-empty tank).

Your post seems to say "calculate the correct weight to dive a neutral rig and only use that much - unless you have a reason for extra, like teaching, working, etc.. If you can't hold a safety stop, too bad. Learn to breathe correctly."

Er, uh, well what is required for your example diver to be unable to hold a safety stop?

Zero suit compression from the surface to 15 ft, *and* an empty cylinder.

What are the risks for a diver that fails to make a 3 minute Safety stop, but otherwise makes a slow controlled ascent after a single tank no mandatory deco dive? Please be specific.

What are the risks of being over weighted? Go read the accident analysis reports for single tank recreational deaths. Let me know what you find.

Once again we are having the *same* debate. I'll vote in favor of not being over weighted every time.

Tobin
 
Got it. I understood all that.

But, at the same time, it seems like the result (for "most" divers - your words) of following your advice would be getting in the water 4 - 6 lbs too light (for their ability to breathe properly), and the response to that from you is "you must adapt your breathing (aka learn to breathe properly) to make the weight you're carrying work for you."

I would have thought it would be better to start with that extra 4 - 6 pounds and then reduce it over time as you learn to breathe properly and no longer need the extra weight - so the diver can actually hold a safety stop at the end of a dive (where they will most likely have a near-empty tank).

Your post seems to say "calculate the correct weight to dive a neutral rig and only use that much - unless you have a reason for extra, like teaching, working, etc.. If you can't hold a safety stop, too bad. Learn to breathe correctly."

divers need to learn how to breathe no more than they need. The natural tendency is to overbreathe, and you need to learn how to not do that. A 100' ocean dive pushing NDL's is not the time to do it. You get an extra 6lbs by having a full AL80, damn near 10lbs for a single 120, and you gradually lose that extra weight throughout the dive. Much better to be properly neutral and use the gas in the tank as training wheels than to start the dive 6lbs+ an extra 4-6lbs overweight where there is no consequence of overbreathing other than having a bad SAC rate and bad depth control.

If you behave, and get to the 15' stop with 1000psi like is usually recommended, you'll have 2lbs of gas in the bottle keeping you down, plus the wetsuit compression. Call a 5mm 10lbs positive, you'll gain an easy extra 2lbs by wetsuit compression, so while you may have a helluva time making your initial descent with a near empty tank, you will still be 4+lbs negative at 15', instead of 8-10lbs negative at 15'. On the start of ascent from 100', that 4lbs will now me closer to 8lbs. If you started at 4-6lbs overweight and have a wing failure, you would have 12-15lbs of negative buoyancy to kick against. This is obviously possible, but is certainly less than ideal.
 
Required ballast is a function of:

1) the buoyancy of the cylinder used

2) The buoyancy of the diver's exposure suit

3) The inherent buoyancy of the diver (typically the least important unless the diver is truly obese.

How buoyant is your suit?

Tobin

got to test my new 5mm buoyancy - came to 12lb in the bathtub. Checked my wife's old 3mm for comparison - 4lb.
backplate 4.5 lb. + reg 4lb = 8.5
12 - 8.5 = 3.5 ballast

so does it mean that the wing has to offset 12lb of compressed wetsuit at depth? Is there anything else that needs to be considered?

Thanks
 
got to test my new 5mm buoyancy - came to 12lb in the bathtub. Checked my wife's old 3mm for comparison - 4lb.
backplate 4.5 lb. + reg 4lb = 8.5
12 - 8.5 = 3.5 ballast

so does it mean that the wing has to offset 12lb of compressed wetsuit at depth? Is there anything else that needs to be considered?

Thanks

Any BC needs to be able to do two things:

Float your rig at the surface with a full cylinder if you ditch it, or if you want to put your gear on in the water

&

Be able to compensate fro the maximum possible change in buoyancy of your exposure suit.

Which ever is greater determines the minimum required wing lift.

Your suit is +12

Your "rig" i.e. plate, harness, reg and full tank is about -6 lbs. 2 for your al plate and harness, 2 for your reg and 2 for a full al 80.


12 > 6 so you need wing greater than 12 based on your suit.


As a side note your rig will provide about *2-3* lbs of ballast with your tank at 700-1000 psi, al 80's hold about 6 lbs of air or nitrox

Your 6 lbs weight belt implies your suit is about 8-9 lbs buoyant at your shallow stop or ~1.5 ATA. that's about right for a suit that is +12 at 1 ATA

A 17-18 lbs wing will easily provide enough lift for 5mm suits and al 80's

Tobin
 
The risks of being overweighted are far more profound. Over weighting + panic is a major contributor in fatal recreational dive accidents.

I find no humor in advocating a practice that has the potential to kill. How exactly does this benefit the dive community when simple education can reduce the practice?

Let's be careful about this. I am a regular reader of the DAN fatality studies, all the way through to the individual case descriptions. Each of the above is true to a certain although differing degree. First recognize that the primary factor in scuba fatalities is related to cardiac health, so we are talking about the much smaller percentage of fatalities related to errors in diver procedures

Panic is definitely a major issue--probably the most important. The joint PADI/DAN study on fatalities a few years ago identified embolisms following panicked ascents following OOA incidents as the primary preventable cause of scuba fatalities. I also attended a scuba insurance workshop that essentially said that going OOA rarely kills anyone--it is the failure to follow training after going OOA (taking that panicked flight to the surface) that really causes the problem.

Overweighting is sometimes a factor, but it is a much smaller factor in comparison to panic. In nearly all such cases, the problem was again related to being OOA. The divers made it to the surface successfully but were unable to remain there. The divers neither orally inflated their BCDs nor dropped their weights. It is for that reason that PADI put extra emphasis on both oral inflation and dropping weights in an emergency in their new standards.

But what does that have to do with being overweighted? It is a logical inference from such a situation. In a standard weight check, the diver is supposed to be able to float at eye level at the surface with an empty BCD and without kicking. A diver who has reached the surface following an OOA situation should have a fair amount of air in the BCD already, so a properly weighted diver with an empty tank should not only be able to stay at the surface without much effort, that diver should not be able to sink. A diver who cannot stay on the surface with a partially filled BCD and an empty tank must be grossly overweighted. In a horrible case well detailed in a ScubaBoard thread a few years ago, a man wearing a new BCD was hunting for lobster in Florida when he ran out of air. He got to the surface but could not remain there because he was grossly overweighted (apparently intentionally to assist him in his lobstering) and could not figure out how to ditch the weights in his new BCD. A woman using rental gear tried to help, but she was unable to help him stay at the surface. Because her rental gear did not include an alternate air regulator, they began to buddy breathe from her one working regulator, and they both drowned.

In summary, panic is indeed a major factor in preventable scuba fatalities, and being grossly overweighted (not 2-6 pounds) is one factor in a cascade of failures in a much smaller number of cases. In every case I can remember in which being overweighted was a contributing factor, the diver was OOA on the surface before death. Since many and perhaps most recreational divers are overweighted to some degree, many and perhaps most fatalities feature overweighted divers, but it is hard to identify being overweighted as a contributing factor in the fatality.
 
Let's be careful about this. I am a regular reader of the DAN fatality studies, all the way through to the individual case descriptions. Each of the above is true to a certain although differing degree. First recognize that the primary factor in scuba fatalities is related to cardiac health, so we are talking about the much smaller percentage of fatalities related to errors in diver procedures

Panic is definitely a major issue--probably the most important. The joint PADI/DAN study on fatalities a few years ago identified embolisms following panicked ascents following OOA incidents as the primary preventable cause of scuba fatalities. I also attended a scuba insurance workshop that essentially said that going OOA rarely kills anyone--it is the failure to follow training after going OOA (taking that panicked flight to the surface) that really causes the problem.

Overweighting is sometimes a factor, but it is a much smaller factor in comparison to panic. In nearly all such cases, the problem was again related to being OOA. The divers made it to the surface successfully but were unable to remain there. The divers neither orally inflated their BCDs nor dropped their weights. It is for that reason that PADI put extra emphasis on both oral inflation and dropping weights in an emergency in their new standards.

But what does that have to do with being overweighted? It is a logical inference from such a situation. In a standard weight check, the diver is supposed to be able to float at eye level at the surface with an empty BCD and without kicking. A diver who has reached the surface following an OOA situation should have a fair amount of air in the BCD already, so a properly weighted diver with an empty tank should not only be able to stay at the surface without much effort, that diver should not be able to sink. A diver who cannot stay on the surface with a partially filled BCD and an empty tank must be grossly overweighted. In a horrible case well detailed in a ScubaBoard thread a few years ago, a man wearing a new BCD was hunting for lobster in Florida when he ran out of air. He got to the surface but could not remain there because he was grossly overweighted (apparently intentionally to assist him in his lobstering) and could not figure out how to ditch the weights in his new BCD. A woman using rental gear tried to help, but she was unable to help him stay at the surface. Because her rental gear did not include an alternate air regulator, they began to buddy breathe from her one working regulator, and they both drowned.

In summary, panic is indeed a major factor in preventable scuba fatalities, and being grossly overweighted (not 2-6 pounds) is one factor in a cascade of failures in a much smaller number of cases. In every case I can remember in which being overweighted was a contributing factor, the diver was OOA on the surface before death. Since many and perhaps most recreational divers are overweighted to some degree, many and perhaps most fatalities feature overweighted divers, but it is hard to identify being overweighted as a contributing factor in the fatality.

How many deaths were the result of being underweighted?


Tobin
 
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