Wings and integrated weight BC's - Are they dangerous?

[rstofer]

Over fifty dives with a WI BC and the most weight I've ever had to move at once is just over 12 lbs in the BC (not counting the cylinder). I dive dry/cold water with 38 lbs. If I had to wear a 38lb weight belt I'd be stuck moving most, if not all of the weight around at once. Plus, if I lost the weight belt...ZOOM! As it is I can drag my weight pouches, 10lb each, down to the water's edge, click them in and dive. The only time I wore a weight belt (other than OW pool sessions) was on a warm water dive with rental BC. Guess what dropped off my body getting back in to the boat? YMMV. Dive your own way. Lots of justifications for different configs depending on diving locale and objective.

Cheers!
VI

Will your BC float your rig on the surface? Figuring -10.5# for the HP100 (full), 38# for the lead, 5# for the reg and miscellaneous (total about 53#), that must be an enormous bladder.

Two things need to be true: First, the diver should be able to float at the surface without the BC and second, the BC should be able to float at the surface without the diver. Spread the weight around to make both situations true.

I use a weight harness because I don't have a waist. I may have had a waist a long time ago but I don't remember. Aging will do that; both to the memory and the waist. In any event, weight harnesses don't fall off, the weight pockets don't self-eject and, at least in the case of the DUI Weight and Trim Classic, they are comfortable to wear. They are not friendly if you have to rethread the ripcord. But the system works!

Richard

 

[Ardy]

Actually,
I just completed my classroom and dives for Rescue diver today so with it fresh in mind. If you are brought to the surface unconcious the diver will inflate your BCD and lay you on your back to check if you are breathing. In this instance the wing or back inflator gives a great stable platform and is easy to tow. With these type BCD it is easy to do a full lay back when fully inflated it is just hard to stay vertical.

Guys I assume you are all well experienced divers and would take an unconcious diver to the surface and adjust their gear on the way up. Most divers I dive with can remember the up/down signal and ooa but that's about it. If someone was unconcious on the bottom I am sure most of these guys would inflate the BC and let em go.

Discussion of 'this is how we do it' is fine for all of you but reality can totally stuff with your training. I try to think of what could happen. We have all seen divers do some unbelieveably stupid things down there.

The most dangerous thing under the water is a young man with attitude and little experience.

 

[Blackwood]

If I were to have all the weights in my BC's integrated weight pouches and I had to take my gears off in the water, I'd simply hold onto my BC. Why would I want to take my gears off in the water and just let it float away? Assuming that I'm doing technical stuff, all of my airs and gases are tied to my BC, what am I going to do if I were to ditch my gear?

If you set up your weighting such that you and your gear are independently neutral, neither you nor your gear will float away if you're forced to remove it.

 

[Ardy]

If you set up your weighting such that you and your gear are independently neutral, neither you nor your gear will float away if you're forced to remove it.

Love this and will take this advice. At the moment if I take my gear off, the gear can be made neutral but I am over weighted. Will sort this out.

thanks Ardy.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

Guys I assume you are all well experienced divers and would take an unconcious diver to the surface and adjust their gear on the way up. Most divers I dive with can remember the up/down signal and ooa but that's about it. If someone was unconcious on the bottom I am sure most of these guys would inflate the BC and let em go.

When performing a risk analysis you have to combine the consequences of each event with the probability of it occurring.

If you are unconscious at the bottom, what is the probability of Joe Random diver rescuing you instead of your buddy? What is the probability that the inflate and let 'em go procedure doesn't kill you from a lung over-expansion injury? For that matter, what is the probability that you haven't been breathing for some time and you aren't already dead?

I would want to peruse the various statistics on accidents and see how many people actually died because they were improperly rescued and their wing failed to save them from an untrained diver rescuing them over-zealously?

Also, I am not a team diving zealot, but being rescued by Joe Random Diver sounds like something that can be avoided through proper buddy-diving, something that is entirely within my control. Should I really be choosing equipment to solve a problem that is created by poor diving practices? Or should I choose to stick with my buddy and choose the best equipment for the diving we will be doing?

 

[rstofer]

Guys I assume you are all well experienced divers and would take an unconcious diver to the surface and adjust their gear on the way up. Most divers I dive with can remember the up/down signal and ooa but that's about it. If someone was unconcious on the bottom I am sure most of these guys would inflate the BC and let em go.

If we're talking about rescuing a diver from great depth (when the wetsuit is really compressed), carrying a full tank, it is likely the BC if pretty close to fully inflated just to remain neutral, at that depth.

That is true for both divers, of course. Now the problem for the rescuer is to hold onto the victim with at least one hand while using the other two hands to dump both BCs during the ascent.

Of course, the obvious solution is to completely vent the victim's BC and control the ascent with just the rescuer's BC. That might actually work if the rescuer's BC has enough lift and the rescuer is strong enough to hold onto the victim. Probably not... Remember, the victim's BC was probably supplying close to 30# of lift just to stay neutral!

Even with training and all good intentions, it isn't so easy to get an unresponsive diver to the surface while simultaneously controlling the buoyancy of both.

Richard

 

[marinediva]

Richard, I have to disagree with your statement.
Ist, my BCD is not fully inflated just to remain neutal at depth. I don't overweight myself for a start. My wetsuit is four years old, and although it used to be a 3mm it is now probably closer to 1mm before I get into the water.

My training makes it easy to use the unresponsive diver's BCD to assist in getting us to the surface. I refrain from using my inflater hose to release my own air in my BCD and instead use my rear venting toggle or my shoulder venting toggle this means one hand is controlling theirs and my inflation, the other is securing the diver to ensure I don't loose him.

At the speed you SHOULD be surfacing from said DEPTH, there is plenty of time to adjust both BCD's without suffering a runaway assent.

I do not need strength to get a victim to the surface, just calm, well trained, common sense.
I am 5'4" and weight 60kgs at nearly 50 years old, and recently practised this skill on a guy 120kg and 5' 11", with success.

I will agree it is not the easiest thing to do, it needs practise practise and more practise to maintain an alert training response. My preference is to be behind the victim, so my left arm is free to do the necessary adjustments. I am more than willing to offer my services to yourself should you regard your own rescue training to be lacking. Rescue courses are my favourite.

md

 

[Ardy]

When performing a risk analysis you have to combine the consequences of each event with the probability of it occurring.

If you are unconscious at the bottom, what is the probability of Joe Random diver rescuing you instead of your buddy? What is the probability that the inflate and let 'em go procedure doesn't kill you from a lung over-expansion injury? For that matter, what is the probability that you haven't been breathing for some time and you aren't already dead?

I would want to peruse the various statistics on accidents and see how many people actually died because they were improperly rescued and their wing failed to save them from an untrained diver rescuing them over-zealously?

Also, I am not a team diving zealot, but being rescued by Joe Random Diver sounds like something that can be avoided through proper buddy-diving, something that is entirely within my control. Should I really be choosing equipment to solve a problem that is created by poor diving practices? Or should I choose to stick with my buddy and choose the best equipment for the diving we will be doing?

Reg this is all very true and we all talk in terms of mitigating risk. However the question really wasn't what is the risk profile of wings v standard bc based on stats. It is really what do you think the risk is? The difference is profound.

People get all sorts of ideas and assume because a lot of people espose them that they are the correct ones. For example in Australia we have had an idea of how best to cope with fire. The wise and knowledgeable suggested fill the gutters with water, have a sprinkler system on the roof, keep the surrounding area well cut and STAY WITH THE HOUSE, its the safest thing. This idea has killed 108 people so far in the fires this weekend.

I know the example is off beat but I prefer to take my own gauge of whether something makes sense, rather than just accept at face value what a specialist has to say.

 

[Ardy]

Richard, I have to disagree with your statement.
Ist, my BCD is not fully inflated just to remain neutal at depth. I don't overweight myself for a start.

md

MarineDiva - You sound like one of the best trained rescue divers I have come across. The rest of the diving community is nothing like you.

 

[Van Isle]

Will your BC float your rig on the surface? Figuring -10.5# for the HP100 (full), 38# for the lead, 5# for the reg and miscellaneous (total about 53#), that must be an enormous bladder.

Richard

Rig floats fine on the surface, as does the diver. I dive single alu 80's. I normally dive a Seaquest Pro QD size small with a "lift rating" of 30lbs. BC carries 34lb of lead (20lbs "ditchable"), plus regs, alu 80, 2 lights, knife, etc. Floats fine when I take it off to get back in my boat.