Wings and integrated weight BC's - Are they dangerous?

[marinediva]

MarineDiva - You sound like one of the best trained rescue divers I have come across. The rest of the diving community is nothing like you.

Am not sure how to take that Ardy, so I will choose the positive way.
For the record.......
I did my rescue course in 2m swell, just off Koh Tao, and my teacher was a woman who was shorter and weighted less than myself.

When I started my DM training, I assisted on no less than ten rescue courses and the PadI Instructor was ex SAS. He was very thorough and would often see courses lasting four days with only one or two students. He would do it until you got it right not just once but until the student was confident.

I also support the idea of BSAC that OW students should learn this skill during their OW course instead of just surfacing and raising the alarm. Because I am a PADI instructor and dont wish to break standards, I make sure students are aware of how to surface an unconscious diver after they have completed an PADI OW course.

As for others in the dive community being nothing like me......well my Christian name means ONE, and I am a woman who does not believe gender has anything to do with being a capable diver. I have a passion for diving in all forms, to date I have completed more solo dives than accompanied. I believe that there are plenty of other divers like myself who were also trained well and certainly anyone that was trained by the Padi dADDY mentioned ex SAS would also have little problem surfacing an unconscious diver.

I also practise this skill often.

 

[rstofer]

Richard, I have to disagree with your statement.
Ist, my BCD is not fully inflated just to remain neutal at depth. I don't overweight myself for a start. My wetsuit is four years old, and although it used to be a 3mm it is now probably closer to 1mm before I get into the water.

Sure, when I took the course in warm water, nothing was difficult. I only used 6# of weight and probably only needed 4#.

Now that it's 50 deg F water, 7 mm wetsuit losing perhaps 16# at depth (maybe more) and an HP 100 that is 8# more negative than at the end of the dive it seems to me that the wing is providing about 24# of lift. Maybe less, maybe more but it isn't a trivial number like it is when wearing a T shirt.

So, it all depends on the circumstances. And the equipment; an integrated octo still in the victim's mouth (maybe he's even breathing from it) might further complicate the process.

It's all workable but it isn't always trivial.

Richard

 

[marinediva]

Richard I do agree that it depends on circumstances.
I would NEVER suggest that rescue is a trivial matter EVER.

If a unconscious diver was using an intergrated occy because they had obviously tried to fix there problem before becoming unconscious, then yes, that would definately require skill and a different approach.

That being the case I would change sides and use my right arm to control my BCD and empty theirs using their rear toggle or shoulder toggle, and use my left arm to ensure the head and mouth piece remain inside the victims mouth.

If they were large and I would not get the lift I needed from my own I would consider losing some weights like training suggests. Who's weights would be a judgement I would make at the time.

This is why as I have stated earlier that I still wear a weight belt and distribute my weights into my BCD and my waist. If I drop my weight belt I am still only losing one.

It is obvious that conditions in tropical waters and bloody cold waters are different, but the bottom line and purpose of the exercise is the same. To get both divers to the surface as quickly as possible without a runaway ascent.

I can also remember being told once that in the worst of worst conditions that maybe taking off my gear and using the victims spare occy is also possible, at least you don't have anything in regards to your own equipment to worry about. I realise it is extreme but I truly do believe there are no right and wrong ways to rescue someone. Everything depends on where, how, when and possibly who.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

My buddy Ross says he likes Hitler more than weight integrated BCs.
He said that after having to lift a rig onto his boat with the weights in the pouches.

I have a particular hatred towards weight integrated BC's precisely for this reason.
If someone dives off my boat and has one of those I make them haul it up over the side!

I had one of the first weight integrated BC's when they first came out. I hated it. The wing was too big because it had to be able to float the weights and the tank at the surface. The result was a big piece of overpriced crap with lots of drag.

It was then I decided to make my own back pack and I've never looked back.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

Reg this is all very true and we all talk in terms of mitigating risk. However the question really wasn't what is the risk profile of wings v standard bc based on stats. It is really what do you think the risk is? The difference is profound.

These are literally choices affecting life or death so I am not going to tell anyone what they should do. If you judge that the risk of an event occurring where you are unconscious but not dead on the bottom, diving solo or separated from your buddy, found by an inexperienced diver, you have air to inflate your BCD, the inexperienced diver does so and sends you to the surface, and where there is no person to ensure you do not drown with your face in the water is significant, I believe you and would not try to talk you out of your belief. What do I know? Nothing.

However, before changing my own beliefs, I would do a little research. I know that I don't know, and I know that research helps me separate the truths from the myths in diving.

 

[no excuses]

a buddy of mine has a weight intregrated BC, had all his weight in the BC, 36#. Dives a dry suit, we hit the surface and clipped off his BC to the boat. He removed BC and it disapeared LOL. He thought it had gone to the bottom and forgot for a second that it was clipped to the boat. He really hatted all the weight on his BC when it was time to pull the BC over the side of the boat. He now splits his weights between BC and belt. Myself I dive a belt, never had reason to add more weight to b/w .

 

[lamont]

even with a drysuit and a single Al80 i think the most weight i used was about 20# of lead, and a 40# wing will float that with the tank and everything else just fine...

 

[fnfalman]

I think that people tend to forget that the Earth is a big place and we aren't all live in the same locations. Diving with a wetsuit is different than diving with a drysuit. Diving with a 3-mil wetsuit is different than diving with a 7-mil wetsuit. Diving with bathing suit is different than diving with 1.5-mil wetsuit. Diving with double and a pony bottle is different than diving single.

We all need to get your gears adjusted and weighed properly first. After that, things get a lot easier for both the diver and rescuer.

 

[dpbishop]

I dive with 15# on a belt & 15# in the AT Pac ( a primitive wing system from the 70's). For boat dives, I can clip off the BC and I am buoyant, but the BC isn't two heavy to lift out of the water. Since a lot of my dives involve surface swims of 1000 kicks or more, I really like the back inflation, just lie on your back and kick. The weight on the belt keeps me vertical on the surface unless I consciously shift to a horizontal position. You can make any system work if you think about it.

 

[Ardy]

These are literally choices affecting life or death so I am not going to tell anyone what they should do. If you judge that the risk of an event occurring where you are unconscious but not dead on the bottom, diving solo or separated from your buddy, found by an inexperienced diver, you have air to inflate your BCD, the inexperienced diver does so and sends you to the surface, and where there is no person to ensure you do not drown with your face in the water is significant, I believe you and would not try to talk you out of your belief. What do I know? Nothing.

However, before changing my own beliefs, I would do a little research. I know that I don't know, and I know that research helps me separate the truths from the myths in diving.

Hi Reg as I dont have a regular buddy (all retired from diving) I end up with the least experienced diver as my 'buddy' so maybe my situation is different. If I am solo diving then, like all buddy dives, I dont expect anything in terms of help. This has forced me to consider my own welfare more than most who have a reliable and good diver buddy. Having said that I think that how I dive now is more sensible where you think out situations assuming no buddy.

I am also an avid reader of DAN accident reports (better than the news I reckon).