I'm with you on this one.
Would you dive with a non-DIR diver?
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To my concern, taking and passing DIR-F does not make one a DIR diver. It merely introduces you to the methodology.
From there, you've got a lot of in-water work ... and a couple more courses (at least) ... ahead of you.
FWIW - I dive with a lot of folks who've taken DIR training. Some of them are what I would consider DIR divers. Most are in varying stages of becoming one.
Myself, I doubt I'll ever gain the competence to stake a claim to the term ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
From there, you've got a lot of in-water work ... and a couple more courses (at least) ... ahead of you.
FWIW - I dive with a lot of folks who've taken DIR training. Some of them are what I would consider DIR divers. Most are in varying stages of becoming one.
Myself, I doubt I'll ever gain the competence to stake a claim to the term ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
devolution365
Contributor
As an OW diver with fewer than 10 dives under my belt, I'm probably your worst nightmare. But, I've read through many of the DIR posts with interest (specifically ones about the classes and what being "DIR" means) and I find many of the concepts interesting and useful as I start to wrap my head around what it means to be a "good diver".
Now, I know I'm years and many dives away from ever making the decision on whether to take the DIRf course or not, but after I have a few more dives under my belt I'd love to dive with someone who's been through DIR to get feedback, tips, recommendations, etc. Basically, get to know DIR as it really is, rather than conceptually through the "wonders of the internet".
So, how do newbie and non-DIR divers ever learn about DIR if you won't dive with them? -How were you (those of you who are DIR divers) get exposed to it if it weren't for someone who was DIR trained stooping down to rec diver status to dive with you?
I don't mean to be accusatory. Many of you seem to be level-headed or even downright humble, but then there are the others who give DIR it's bad name... The whole culture seems to lend itself to this idea that recreational divers can't be safe divers. And from the rules (wanting similar equipment, the concept of a "dive team", etc) I can see why. In a recreational setting, however, why not share your knowledge with those of us who have yet to be enlightened? (Or at least with those who are interested in learning to be better divers.)
Now, I know I'm years and many dives away from ever making the decision on whether to take the DIRf course or not, but after I have a few more dives under my belt I'd love to dive with someone who's been through DIR to get feedback, tips, recommendations, etc. Basically, get to know DIR as it really is, rather than conceptually through the "wonders of the internet".
So, how do newbie and non-DIR divers ever learn about DIR if you won't dive with them? -How were you (those of you who are DIR divers) get exposed to it if it weren't for someone who was DIR trained stooping down to rec diver status to dive with you?
I don't mean to be accusatory. Many of you seem to be level-headed or even downright humble, but then there are the others who give DIR it's bad name... The whole culture seems to lend itself to this idea that recreational divers can't be safe divers. And from the rules (wanting similar equipment, the concept of a "dive team", etc) I can see why. In a recreational setting, however, why not share your knowledge with those of us who have yet to be enlightened? (Or at least with those who are interested in learning to be better divers.)
Diver Dennis
Contributor
Don't worry Dev, there are lots of excellent DIR guys who will be more than happy to dive with you in conditions you are quialified for.
I dive with students...
What was the question?
Rick
What was the question?
Rick
I also don't feel that my thoughts on the matter are represented in the poll, so I did not vote.
As a matter of disclosure, I have gone though DIR-F, but have a provisional status at this point. I understand everything that was taught, but need to further develop the actual skills.
I'll speak from a philosophical point of view, since I currently only do recreational dives.
A dive's level of complexity will determine who I will dive with whether it's someone who has gone through DIR training or not.
At the least complex end of the scale, I would dive with anyone who does not display an unsafe attitude. If I feel that someone's attitude is one that could put me or themselves in danger, I won't do the dive. This is what I was taught in the '70s, so I've felt this way long before I ever heard of DIR.
As the level of complexity increases and requires more skill or experience, I will exercise a higher degree of discernment when it comes to choosing who I want on my team.
On the more recreational end of the scale, having a DIR team mate has more to do with diving enjoyment than safety, in my opinion. Diving with people who use the same procedures that I use make it a more enjoyable dive. I think it's more about compatability of diving styles, at this point.
For instance, I don't like to race around the ocean bottom looking for things. I have no problem with people who like to do this, but you won't see me teaming up with these people very often because our diving styles are incompatible. I like to move slowly and really take everything in.
As we move to the technical end of the scale, I believe procedure becomes increasingly important to safety. I think this is true whether you dive DIR or not. I have personally chosen to follow DIR procedure, so if I'm going to undertake a dive 350 feet deep and over 3.5 miles into a cave, I won't be diving with someone who is not 100% DIR when it comes to procedure.
Just to be clear and try to keep from being misunderstood, if I had chosen some other system of diving, I would not do a dive requiring a high degree of skill and experience unless someone was adhering to that system 100%. Compatability when doing dives with a high level of complexity becomes a safety issue of life and death importance. I'm not saying that I think everyone has to be DIR to do a dive at the top level of complexity. I am saying that if someone is going to undertake that kind of a dive they should be 100% compatible when it comes to how they handle things when something goes wrong.
By the way, I would not do a dive requiring a high level of skill and experience with someone just because they hold a GUE cert that says they are qualified at a certain level. I would start training with them at a recreational level and increase the level of difficulty over a period of time to develop our sense of being a team. At some point, DIR or not, we may reach the conclusion that we are not a tight enough team to go beyond a certain level of complexity together. That's not a commentary on anyone's dive ability. We could both have excellent skills and might both acheive that level of tightness with other team members. It gets back to compatability. It's something that you only learn about each other through diving as a team together over a period of time.
That's my take on the subject with the knowledge and understanding that I currently have. As I learn more and understand more, what I believe may change to some degree.
Christian
As a matter of disclosure, I have gone though DIR-F, but have a provisional status at this point. I understand everything that was taught, but need to further develop the actual skills.
I'll speak from a philosophical point of view, since I currently only do recreational dives.
A dive's level of complexity will determine who I will dive with whether it's someone who has gone through DIR training or not.
At the least complex end of the scale, I would dive with anyone who does not display an unsafe attitude. If I feel that someone's attitude is one that could put me or themselves in danger, I won't do the dive. This is what I was taught in the '70s, so I've felt this way long before I ever heard of DIR.
As the level of complexity increases and requires more skill or experience, I will exercise a higher degree of discernment when it comes to choosing who I want on my team.
On the more recreational end of the scale, having a DIR team mate has more to do with diving enjoyment than safety, in my opinion. Diving with people who use the same procedures that I use make it a more enjoyable dive. I think it's more about compatability of diving styles, at this point.
For instance, I don't like to race around the ocean bottom looking for things. I have no problem with people who like to do this, but you won't see me teaming up with these people very often because our diving styles are incompatible. I like to move slowly and really take everything in.
As we move to the technical end of the scale, I believe procedure becomes increasingly important to safety. I think this is true whether you dive DIR or not. I have personally chosen to follow DIR procedure, so if I'm going to undertake a dive 350 feet deep and over 3.5 miles into a cave, I won't be diving with someone who is not 100% DIR when it comes to procedure.
Just to be clear and try to keep from being misunderstood, if I had chosen some other system of diving, I would not do a dive requiring a high degree of skill and experience unless someone was adhering to that system 100%. Compatability when doing dives with a high level of complexity becomes a safety issue of life and death importance. I'm not saying that I think everyone has to be DIR to do a dive at the top level of complexity. I am saying that if someone is going to undertake that kind of a dive they should be 100% compatible when it comes to how they handle things when something goes wrong.
By the way, I would not do a dive requiring a high level of skill and experience with someone just because they hold a GUE cert that says they are qualified at a certain level. I would start training with them at a recreational level and increase the level of difficulty over a period of time to develop our sense of being a team. At some point, DIR or not, we may reach the conclusion that we are not a tight enough team to go beyond a certain level of complexity together. That's not a commentary on anyone's dive ability. We could both have excellent skills and might both acheive that level of tightness with other team members. It gets back to compatability. It's something that you only learn about each other through diving as a team together over a period of time.
That's my take on the subject with the knowledge and understanding that I currently have. As I learn more and understand more, what I believe may change to some degree.
Christian
piikki
Contributor
I am not qualified to participate in the poll either since my DIR-F is only coming up, and then we won't know how long it takes after that when (if) I have the 3-letters burnt on my skin as a sign of membership. But since this poll was posted on DIR-forum I'd like to hear THE DIR answer - if there is one. Not that I need it to make up my mind but out of curiosity, is there one right way of deciding this? Or is independent thought encouraged?
And just like Jeckyll - any of you DIR'ers, if you want to show how you look like in real life here's an invitation. I'll be investigating Florida springs last week of January, and I am still to witness 'one of yous' face to face. Where do you hang out - I could at least admire you from distance if you're not all in caves.
And just like Jeckyll - any of you DIR'ers, if you want to show how you look like in real life here's an invitation. I'll be investigating Florida springs last week of January, and I am still to witness 'one of yous' face to face. Where do you hang out - I could at least admire you from distance if you're not all in caves.
Captain CaveMan
Contributor
How about a little less BS, and a little more diving. -Know matter who's it with.
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I appreciate the responses thus far -- it this poll too simple for such a complex issue? Of course, but it is interesting and educational to see the breakdown nonetheless (in a qualitative manner).
I think so far it shows that most "DIR" divers have an open mind on the subject, which goes a long way in showing everyone that the minority on these internet sites is often much louder than it should be. In other words, those not on extremes don't often speak up, and the actual opinion is much different (and less extreme) than what you may think.
FWIW I'm not DIR and doubt I will ever be in its purest sense, although I think the fundamentals are sound and I see myself taking DIR-F in the future to further my personal diving abilities.
Thanks for the constructive input thus far
Scott
I think so far it shows that most "DIR" divers have an open mind on the subject, which goes a long way in showing everyone that the minority on these internet sites is often much louder than it should be. In other words, those not on extremes don't often speak up, and the actual opinion is much different (and less extreme) than what you may think.
FWIW I'm not DIR and doubt I will ever be in its purest sense, although I think the fundamentals are sound and I see myself taking DIR-F in the future to further my personal diving abilities.
Thanks for the constructive input thus far
Scott
Nostromo
Registered
Simply subscribing to the methodology? Passing DIR-F? Getting a provisional? Tech or Cave 1? Personally I think actions speak louder than acronyms, but that's just me...
On a slightly different tack, I wonder what the actual numbers are for various levels of GUE training. How many provisionals are out there? How many Tech or Cave 1s 2s or 3s? Does GUE publish that sort of info? I'd be curious to know.
e.a.e.
On a slightly different tack, I wonder what the actual numbers are for various levels of GUE training. How many provisionals are out there? How many Tech or Cave 1s 2s or 3s? Does GUE publish that sort of info? I'd be curious to know.
e.a.e.
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