Leaving bottles

[boulderjohn]

In a thread in a regional forum (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/southwest-sand-sharks/413107-hey-lake-pleasant-vista-point-divers-instructors.html), an argument erupted about the idea of leaving deco bottles behind on a line for use on ascent. Some argued that it should only be done in a cave and not an open water environment. I thought this might make an interesting topic in this forum. I don't mean to limit in any way to the details of the original thread. I just wonder what people in this are think of leaving bottles behind in various environments, including caves, wrecks, open water, sewers--whatever.

[rongoodman]

I'll leave the bottle on the line in a cave, but keep it(them) with me in open water.

[waterpirate]

I allways have my bottles with me. In open water it is a no brainer. For wreck penetration if I can not get in there with the bottles I am carrying, I do not go in.
Eric

[TSandM]

Ron, I like your status!

I was taught to keep all bottles with me in OW. The environment is simply too dynamic to count on being able to get back to them, if you leave them -- and reading The Last Dive only reinforced that for me.

Leaving them in a cave can be problematic, too. There have been a number of thefts of deco bottles left at 20 feet in Ginnie Springs; when we dove there the other day, we broke the rule of "never carry a bottle below its MOD", and left our bottles at the sign. From what I've read, that may not be far enough, either. We weren't worried because there was no one else there.

[JamesK]

In OW my bottles all stay with me. However, I don't do very much OW deco diving.

In a cave I will drop bottles. In places like Ginnie that has a lot of OW divers, I will carry my bottles farther in. I have come back out of there and had someone messing with my bottle before. I will not let that happen again.

[boulderjohn]

Let me throw an additional issue into the question. To what degree does the number of bottles matter?

I know of a situation where some divers will leave bottles in an OW site on a special line that has its float at 60 feet and is next to the main ascent line at a site dived almost exclusively by tech divers. They will do this when they are carrying a lot of bottles, situations where others would normally use a leash for the extra(s). I have not seen these people in a less sheltered area, so I don't know their habits elsewhere.

What do you think?

[diverdoug1]

When I am diving in open water, I have all required gas to ascend with me, except when I am sometimes penetrating a wreck, I will drop my stage tanks at my exit point, but only when I have a safety diver. I had a stage tank go walking that I dropped by the chimney at Eagles Nest one time, so it is not always totaly safe to drop you tanks when cave diving either. Whoever (whomever?) took that tank and reg has some bad Karma on them now!!!!

[NWGratefulDiver]

One significant problem with leaving bottles at an OW site is described in the initial post of that linked thread ... someone who doesn't understand why they're there being "helpful" and removing them from the water. Now what ... gonna be a long deco ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[boulderjohn]

... reading The Last Dive only reinforced that for me.


Last year a buddy suggested (wet notes) we drop our deco tanks outside the wreck we were visiting so we could squeeze through the hole in the hull we were looking at. I immediately thought of Chris and Chrissie Rouse leaving their tanks outside the uboat and not finding them when they came out another hole. No way!

I have also thought of Bernie Chowdhury leaving his tanks by one of the ascent lines on a wreck and then getting so narced he went up the wrong line. (His conclusion after sever DCS: wear a full face mask with coms so that when you screw up like that again, you can tell the surface to send something down for you.)

That is why I do tend to take everything with me, although I do admit that I leave O2 bottles in caves.

[ianr33]

Would normally take all bottles with me in OW.
We were doing some local dives a couple of years ago where we dropped bottles though. Were basically treating these dives like cave dives (laying a line across an endless silt plain) Put a note on the O2 and had a support diver at the 50%. Leaving tanks anywhere there are OW divers or classes just seems to be asking for trouble.

Only time I have dived Ginnie was in Cave Class. Instructor dropped his O2 after the Hill 400 jump..........

[down4fun]

For the average decompression dive there is no reason not to carry all your gas with you. Stashing gas on up line is too risky in my opinion. It requires that you a) make it back to the line, and b) that the line still be there. Now there are situations for really big dives where additional gas may be with safety divers, but i view that differently than leaving unattended gas on a line. In the caves we will leave the o2 at the sign and for bigger cave dives, like EN, we may drop off additional gas at the mound and along the line rather than carry everything with us. But that is a pretty controlled environment.

[nadwidny]

Haven't done much multi-cylinder cave dives but the few I did we dropped our stages at various places along the line and our O2 at our 20' stop (all Mexico, never been to Florida). For OW I usually I carry all my gas with me but if I need to squeeze into a tight space on a wreck I'll leave them outside what ever hole I'm going in to.

[boulderjohn]

Only time I have dived Ginnie was in Cave Class. Instructor dropped his O2 after the Hill 400 jump..........That should have kept it out of the reach of the typical OW diver trespassing in the cavern zone.

[Rainer]

I've always kept mine with me (OW). If you're going to do a wreck penetration that requires you to come back to the entrance anyway, leaving them outside (IMO) isn't an issue (and if it's the only way you'll fit, then a no-brainer if you want to do the dive).

If possible, though, preferable to keep gas with you.

[PfcAJ]

Only time I have dived Ginnie was in Cave Class. Instructor dropped his O2 after the Hill 400 jump..........

He probably forgot to drop it at a reasonable spot in the front of the cave. Dragging an o2 bottle to the H400 is stupid and potentially dangerous.

[RJP]

If I plan to breathe it... I plan to carry it. (OW)

[Splitlip]

Last year a buddy suggested (wet notes) we drop our deco tanks outside the wreck we were visiting so we could squeeze through the hole in the hull we were looking at. I immediately thought of Chris and Chrissie Rouse leaving their tanks outside the uboat and not finding them when they came out another hole. No way!

I have also thought of Bernie Chowdhury leaving his tanks by one of the ascent lines on a wreck and then getting so narced he went up the wrong line. (His conclusion after sever DCS: wear a full face mask with coms so that when you screw up like that again, you can tell the surface to send something down for you.)

That is why I do tend to take everything with me, although I do admit that I leave O2 bottles in caves.
I'm not a tech diver, but I read both books. My butt puckers as I recall the .

I am shocked that divers have issues with rec divers "recovering" their obottles. I work with a cave diver. Before we knew each other and when I learned he was a caver, I did what I do. I told him that I'm "a diver. I was doing a cavern dive and found a couple reels and tanks. Fortunately they had the owners' names on them. I grabbed them up and dropped them at the office." the guy (now friend and buddy) went off on me. By the time I convinced I was ****ing around and he calmed down, I asked how he could put his faith in something he does not have complete control. His reply was no caver is going to touch another's bottle or line.
My questions were what about the ignorant rec diver or the cave diver with a young child who has somehow lost his deco bottle.
I am not tech. And now I know I'm skewing off into hijack territory. But my buddy Scott has blind faith in his cave diving brothers who will not touch his stage or deco bottles left. But what guarantee is there that some brother diver in crisis will die rather than take advantage of somebody else's bottle.

[DevonDiver]

Interesting to read this, as I just posted a similar thread/poll - specifically in regards to technical wreck penetrations:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/wreck-diving/420750-tech-wreck-opinions-staging-your-deco-tanks-penetration.html

I wouldn't stage a tank for an open-water tech dive, although I have removed tanks (secured close at hand) on the bottom portion to ease completion of a particular task. In those cases, tanks are secured within eyesight.

For wreck penetrations, I make a risk assessment that balances the dangers of taking the tank inside, versus leaving it secured at the primary tie-off (never at shallow/stop depth). For many of those dives, that means my stages are well below a depth where a 'rec' diver might wander across them and interfere... I'll also be exiting on that line (as per cave diving - in and out along the same route) and will return to my tanks before ascent.
.
Where I may be penetrating within recreational depths (with risk of rec divers passing my staged cylinders) and doing deco because of long bottom times, rather than excessive depth,... I will always leave a 'notice' on the staged tanks. Typically, I'll also ensure I could deco on my backgas - reserving my stages for acceleration only.

As an aside, I've thought about alternatives to leaving a 'notice'... for instance, even padlocking the tanks (this would be on a cut-away) - but would get the message across...

There are dangers in taking stages inside... more risk of entanglement/entrapment.. more risk of damage to the tanks/regs from collision...risk to hoses from snagging... risk of silting from extra equipment/task loading.... however minimal and offset by diver skill. Contrary to the K.I.S.S. principle?


I already dive/penetrate 'pushing tanks ahead', because I use sidemount to access areas beyond the capacity of backmounted penetration. Taking deco tanks along would require substantially more technicality and risk. I plan linear penetration (in-and-out, on the line) rather than a 'circuit' (different entry and exit point), regardless of whether other exits exist...


Cave divers stage deco on the basis of returning along the same path. So why shouldn't technical wreck divers?


Yes, a wreck may present alternative exit points - but. to me, those would generally be for contingency/emergency/escape egress only.

[Rainer]

So why shouldn't technical wreck divers?


I think the reason this has fared poorly for some wreck divers in the past, is that they did not employ "cave diving techniques" (namely a continuous guideline) to ensure their ability to exit via the same route as they entered, leaving open the possibility of not being able to return to their staged decompression cylinders.

If you're willing to lay down line and have the skills / procedures to guarantee that you can get back to where you left the cylinders securely attached outside, I see no harm in doing so. If you're instead going to rely on fickle memory to guide your exit (or don't really care where you come out), then best to either keep all bottles attached or simply not bother with any penetrations.

[JamesK]

When I am diving in open water, I have all required gas to ascend with me, except when I am sometimes penetrating a wreck, I will drop my stage tanks at my exit point, but only when I have a safety diver. I had a stage tank go walking that I dropped by the chimney at Eagles Nest one time, so it is not always totaly safe to drop you tanks when cave diving either. Whoever (whomever?) took that tank and reg has some bad Karma on them now!!!!

Someone took at tank at EN??? That is shocking to me. I expect it at places like Ginnie, but EN? Just damn!


Would normally take all bottles with me in OW.
We were doing some local dives a couple of years ago where we dropped bottles though. Were basically treating these dives like cave dives (laying a line across an endless silt plain) Put a note on the O2 and had a support diver at the 50%. Leaving tanks anywhere there are OW divers or classes just seems to be asking for trouble.

Only time I have dived Ginnie was in Cave Class. Instructor dropped his O2 after the Hill 400 jump..........

Hill 400 is a long way in to drop an O2 bottle. I am with AJ, I am thinking he just forgot to drop it.


I'm not a tech diver, but I read both books. My butt puckers as I recall the .

I am shocked that divers have issues with rec divers "recovering" their obottles. I work with a cave diver. Before we knew each other and when I learned he was a caver, I did what I do. I told him that I'm "a diver. I was doing a cavern dive and found a couple reels and tanks. Fortunately they had the owners' names on them. I grabbed them up and dropped them at the office." the guy (now friend and buddy) went off on me. By the time I convinced I was ****ing around and he calmed down, I asked how he could put his faith in something he does not have complete control. His reply was no caver is going to touch another's bottle or line.
My questions were what about the ignorant rec diver or the cave diver with a young child who has somehow lost his deco bottle.
I am not tech. And now I know I'm skewing off into hijack territory. But my buddy Scott has blind faith in his cave diving brothers who will not touch his stage or deco bottles left. But what guarantee is there that some brother diver in crisis will die rather than take advantage of somebody else's bottle.

It is very possible that someone could take your bottle still leaving it on a line. However, that is why you plan and manage your gas where you have enough in case that happens. If I breath down a stage and someone takes it, then I still have my reserves in my backgas to make it out, or to my next stage. If my deco bottle goes missing, I go to my wetnotes and look at my contingency deco plan on 32% instead of 100% and deco using my stage or backgas. I just sit longer.

[DevonDiver]

If you're willing to lay down line and have the skills / procedures to guarantee that you can get back to where you left the cylinders securely attached outside, I see no harm in doing so. If you're instead going to rely on fickle memory to guide your exit (or don't really care where you come out), then best to either keep all bottles attached or simply not bother with any penetrations.

Anything less isn't really 'technical wreck' diving IMHO. The same would apply to a generic OW 'tech diver' heading into a cave system...

Bad skillz is bad skillz....

[Centrals]

I carry all the deco tanks on ow dive.
For wreck diving then it is different. It depends on the depth and familiarity of the wreck. I might carry all the tanks. I might leave all the deco tanks beside the tie off of the main shot line. I might leave them just outside/inside of the point of penetration.

[GrimSleeper]

Most of my OW ascents are either up a reef wall or blue water under a bag, so there's no way my deco gas is going to be anywhere but with me. For wreck penetration, as Devon Diver says, it's situation-dependent as to whether I'll stage tanks off or not, but if I am leaving my decos then they're getting clipped to the line I lay and I'm coming out the way I went in.

We don't really have to worry about other divers interfering with our gear here... One of the advantages of being just past the middle of nowhere!

[diverdoug1]

Someone took at tank at EN??? That is shocking to me. I expect it at places like Ginnie, but EN? Just damn!

Yah, if I had caught them, there would have been more than a little "splainin" to do! I made a police report, but did not have much info other than a regulator serial number to give them. My name is painted on all my tanks, but I am sure it got painted or dumped. Ancient history (almost 15 years ago).

[Rainer]

Lol, yeah, but try telling that to all the guys on the East Coast of the USA. ;)


Anything less isn't really 'technical wreck' diving IMHO. The same would apply to a generic OW 'tech diver' heading into a cave system...

Bad skillz is bad skillz....

[TSandM]

If somebody has to take one of my cylinders to survive, more power to them, and may they never make the error again that they made that ended up with them needing my gas. If I've done my gas planning properly, I've prepared for the loss of any one cylinder, anyway.

[boulderjohn]

Cave divers stage deco on the basis of returning along the same path. So why shouldn't technical wreck divers?


Yes, a wreck may present alternative exit points - but. to me, those would generally be for contingency/emergency/escape egress only.

In almost all cases, if something happens and the cave diver does not exit on the same path, it's all over, and missing deco bottles are the least of their problems. There is usually only once choice.

In the incidents recorded in The Last Dive, all three of the victims fully intended to go back on the same path. It seems to me to be all too easy for caca on the fan to make a planned egress impossible. On the case of the Rouse's, they were evidently confused by narcosis upon their exit and did not have the ability to find their tanks. Chowdhury, also incapacitated by narcosis, knew where his deco gas was, but he did not have enough gas to get to it.

Yes, I think there will be situations where such an act makes sense, and I might do it myself under those circumstances, but it will only be after long consideration.

[DevonDiver]

In almost all cases, if something happens and the cave diver does not exit on the same path, it's all over, and missing deco bottles are the least of their problems. There is usually only once choice.

Yep, that's one of the big differences: wreck versus cave. Wrecks often (but not always) present alternative exit routes. There's plenty that can happen in a wreck that'd make a return along the penetration line impossible - I'd hazard to say that collapse of structure was generally a higher risk in wrecks, than caves?


In the incidents recorded in The Last Dive, all three of the victims fully intended to go back on the same path. It seems to me to be all too easy for caca on the fan to make a planned egress impossible. On the case of the Rouse's, they were evidently confused by narcosis upon their exit and did not have the ability to find their tanks. Chowdhury, also incapacitated by narcosis, knew where his deco gas was, but he did not have enough gas to get to it.

I also think that narcosis management was the primary issue - but with that in mind, the staging of tanks may not be the most reasonable option - if high narcotic stress is predicted.

The answer (obviously) being to mitigate the narcosis and/or adopt procedures that ensure divers can return to the tanks should they be unable to return along their initial penetration route.


Yes, I think there will be situations where such an act makes sense, and I might do it myself under those circumstances, but it will only be after long consideration.

When conducting penetrations on wrecks, I tend to have a specific goal - that being to reach X, Y or Z area inside the wreck. As such, the goal tends to dictate the approach. If reaching that area requires passing through restrictions and/or other areas where a deco tank would be unsuitable, then the deco tank would be staged. That is, more often than not, the case. Hence, my typical approach would be to stage tanks at the primary tie-off. Wherever possible, I'll have investigated other access/egress points... and ensure I am familiar with the wreck layout, so that reaching that tie-off/staging point can be accomplished. If there was doubt about that capability, then I'd consider running an external line on the wreck (from which my penetration line would run).

[ajduplessis]

.......

Leaving them in a cave can be problematic, too. There have been a number of thefts of deco bottles left at 20 feet in Ginnie Springs;

.......

I will personally drown someone if I find them stealing bottles. If someone touches other divers "life-lines" that's what is coming their way :angrymob:

[cavedivefl.com]

I will personally drown someone if I find them stealing bottles. If someone touches other divers "life-lines" that's what is coming their way :angrymob:

Take Em to the sign or at least 1/2 to the lips,,,

[JamesK]

Take Em to the sign or at least 1/2 to the lips,,,

At Ginnie, yes!