Redesigning AOW

[seaducer]

Which is sad.

It seems that the consensus objection to AOW is the name. Many people have posted many ideas, but it really boils down to the word 'advanced'.

Which is sad, considering the amount of pixels that have been slaughtered over a word, which is appropriate, but often taken out of context.

That people get through BOW while lacking the B(asics) is evidence that it's BOW, not AOW, that needs the overhaul.

Interesting. I think many of the people you described should be either failed or held back for remedial training until they get it. I am not sure it is a lacking of the OW course, or the instructor pushing people through before they are ready. OW has become sort of cookie cutter, and not everyone can be forced into the same mold.

It has been my opinion for a while that instead of just repeating a few CW skills on your OW dives, it would be beneficial to doing the AOW dives in addition.

To me it is like limiting people learning to drive to only driving during the day on their permits, then once they get their license they can drive at night

 

[Blackwood]

I am not sure it is a lacking of the OW course, or the instructor pushing people through before they are ready.

I think it's the lack (or low level) of standards.

If, agency wide, students were held to a higher level of minimum proficiency, instructors couldn't simply push them through.

But profit is part of the equation.

 

[lazyturtle]

After reading a bunch of posts in this thread I've a few comments:

1. The business of diving. Let me emphasize the word business. I've seen a few posts about how people would like to see 10 or so dives for an AOW course. That's fine, in fact when I have the flexibility (ie I'm teaching on my own rather than through a shop) I do like to work out stuff like extra dives, repeating the same skills over the course of a few dives. But in reality, most shops wouldn't be able to sell a 10 dive course. It just wouldn't work, especially in the vacation locations, where the average American is visiting for 5-7 nights. So it's a nice idea, but simply not (economically) practical. To say to the businesses in those locations 'you cannot teach classes' it both ridiculous and unrealistic.

2. The academics. To me, diving is not a very academic thing. Do I care how the deco models where made, designed or tested? No. I care how to apply them to my diving. That basically means pulling out a table(s) and planning my dive, a skill that should be mastered in OW.

3. Course titles. I actually often have a problem with titles. A course has to have some title, and the title is determined by the marketing department (I mean which sounds cooler: open water II or advanced open water). Don’t focus on what the ‘title’ that some diver has, how many cards they have or what agency they’ve done training with. They can either dive or not. It takes experience to be able to judge people before seeing them in the water, but it can be done.

4. Looking at the title a bit more, Advanced Open Water. To me this title implies that you are taking a course that will build upon what you learned in OW. Just like in college when you take Biology 101 and than Biology 102; the 102 course could easily be called 'Advanced Biology'. When I do AOW I prefer to include the S&R dive (for reasons already stated), the drift dive (I think that drifts are a little complex to figure out on your own) and night (not that any shops here let me do it) and PPB (in lieu of night). I discourage wreck (there’s not really any useful skills that you can’t learn on your own), boat (as useless as the people who can’t figure out to STORE YOU’RE CRAP OFF THE WALKWAY!), photo (I like the concept, but 1 dives not enough), fish id/naturalist (again, figure it out yourself).

5. The burden of skill rests with the student. Every time you meet a diver out there with an AOW card whose not very good at diving, everyone wants to blame the instructor or the agency. In my experience, most people who get these cards simply don't (for whatever reason) put the extra time into practicing the skills they learned during the dive. You can have the best instructor in the world, but if you don't follow through and practice after the class, then it was all a waste. The same thing goes for the instructor by the way. Practice makes perfect.

6. Always remember that getting certified (in fact any formal training in SCUBA) is a good thing. There’s simply nothing at all (ie no legal requirement) stopping people from getting gear and going diving without any knowledge at all. Rather than bag on classes and agencies I think more effort and energy should be put on self-practice and self-improvement.

 

[24940]

So your telling me after OW you were ready for deco training( did you have your tables MASTERED?) Or lifting "STUFF" from the bottom? ( How was your buoyancy? did you really have enough sense too ditch the reel if it backlashed and was taking you for a ride to the moon?)

ehm, no... I was telling you:

Why the need to read his profile to make sense of his post? It seems he is saying not enough "advanced" skills are included in OW. No reason to climb up his ass for that.

Totally agree with the guy.

But, since you ask....Yes, I had the tables mastered when I was initially certified. My buoyancy was good, but my trim sucked, since I had no idea of the concept. Lifting "STUFF" and dealing with a reel has no place in OW training.

And again, did you have your bouyancy/finning mastered so well that you could enter a wreck or cave and not silt it out within the first few feet resulting in a TOTAL SILT OUT?, and if that were too happen did you have enough composure too keep your $h!t together and get yourself AND buddy out? Probably not, I know I wasn't, was anybody else here that good and ready for that? I don't think it is really the agencies lack of competency other than allowing under experienced divers too become instructors.That is why I think a divers should have more than 100 dives too become an instructor. I've known from the beginning I wanted too become an instructor but felt it would be a HUGE DISSERVICE to my students if had started that early in my diving career. My view is that I'd rather have an encyclopedia of knowledge and need a pee chee, than too have a pee chee and need a dictionary!! I'm sorry if anyone took offense too any of my posts, but I'm very passionate about turning out exceptional divers rather than divers that may go out and hurt themselves.

Wow, that's a lot of rambling. No, I didn't have wreck skills coming out of OW. I did have very good buoyancy, self aid, dive planning and a solid grasp of the fundamentals of physics and physiology relating to diving as a result of a thorough OW class. IOW, I feel I came away from my initial OW cert in better shape than most divers I see these days coming out of AOW.

Oh man, I need too stop before I say something that may get me in trouble with others in the know.:no

"others in the know"???? What are you talking about?

This is one reason I like too stay in the closed forums.

Joe

This is one reason I like people to stay in closed forums.

If you get to the Rogue Valley and want to dive, let me know. You seem like a nut case, but I'd still dive with you.

 

[scubadale]

This whole card collecting thing is new to me, I'm thinking about getting OW, Nitrox, Intro Cave, Full Cave, and either Rec Trimix or GUE Fundamentals, hopefully all within the next year.....is that a good collection? I don't have the good PADI ones like AOW, night diver, drysuit diver, etc, but I'm thinking I'll manage

I just didn't do cave because there were so many caverns I wanted to enjoy. Now that I've experienced those, it's time to go on. Truth be told, I don't care about certs, I just care about having training to be safe. I'm waiting for full cave to learn about decompression (beyond that taught in OW), as it's not really needed until then.

You should stop all further training until you get your PPB badge.

 

[String]

Lifting "STUFF" and dealing with a reel has no place in OW training.

Depends where you dive. If you cant use a reel and DSMB (and own both) you wont be allowed on any charter boat in the country or club boat as its 100% essential for every dive no matter what level you are so even at OW level unless you want to live in quarries (who sometimes also mandate that) you need to know it.

 

[tedtim]

...If you cant use a reel and DSMB (and own both) you wont be allowed on any charter boat in the country or club boat as its 100% essential for every dive no matter what level you are so even at OW level unless you want to live in quarries (who sometimes also mandate that) you need to know it.

OK, under what regulations or standards is this required? Why is it essential for every dive? I believe that it is a good idea, but just do not understand who sets this as the rule/standard, especially if it is the person running the quarry.

In the AOW=BS thread in response to this:

Where was the Captain? If these guys were as inept and obnoxious as being implied, shouldn't the Captain have prevented them from diving or ever getting on the boat? The dive operator has a responsibility to all divers to provide an enjoyable and safe dive experience as possible while making a living. If the D.O. chased the dollar without caring for all divers, make a note not to dive with that company again.

You replied:

Why should it be any concern or in fact business of the taxi driver to control this?

So, why would it be the responsibility of the charter operator to control this (DSMB)?

 

[The_DivePirate]

Why the need to read his profile to make sense of his post? It seems he is saying not enough "advanced" skills are included in OW. No reason to climb up his ass for that.
I didn't think that was climbing up his ass. Was merely wondering his background, it just seems that like most of the younger crowd, they want it all and they want it NOW!! It doesn't work that way, there a steps you must take in order too absorb the information that is being given too you.
That is why SOME students don't even come away from OW with adequate skills yet pass the course.
And as far as,

"And again, did you have your bouyancy/finning mastered so well that you could enter a wreck or cave and not silt it out within the first few feet resulting in a TOTAL SILT OUT?, and if that were too happen did you have enough composure too keep your $h!t together and get yourself AND buddy out? Probably not, I know I wasn't, was anybody else here that good and ready for that? I don't think it is really the agencies lack of competency other than allowing under experienced divers too become instructors.That is why I think a divers should have more than 100 dives too become an instructor. I've known from the beginning I wanted too become an instructor but felt it would be a HUGE DISSERVICE to my students if had started that early in my diving career. My view is that I'd rather have an encyclopedia of knowledge and need a pee chee, than too have a pee chee and need a dictionary!! I'm sorry if anyone took offense too any of my posts, but I'm very passionate about turning out exceptional divers rather than divers that may go out and hurt themselves."

My point was, you need time to use some of the skills that you were given and make them a habit before you were expected too progress. As instructors, we understand not all students progress at the rate. But, it is our job too make sure that ALL the students have at least the Minimal standards Mastered, now yes some students will accept the skills and perform them with more proficiency, (they are the exceptional students) which sounds like you may have been one of, and since there is no time frame given by agencies for how long between OW and AOW we as instructors must make sure that students have the minimal mastery of the skills that it will take too complete the course at hand.
So hopefully I made myself and statements a little more clear. I'm not trying too be an @$$ but feel very STRONGLY about the fact MOST students require time too digest what has been taught too them.

Joe

So where do you dive in Rogue valley?

 

[SailNaked]

At the risk of being labeled here are my thoughts:
You need OW or else you cant get your tanks filled: I can get a boat, I can get all the gear i want, I can learn about deco by asking questions here on Scubaboard and I can dive deep. I can learn to use a reel all on my own dont need a class, I can learn to manage my buoyancy I can learn trim and about anything else I need when I need it.

--as a test lets see if I am close. say I dive to 200 feet, I stay 15 minutes (air), I come up to 120(nitrox um 34?) and hang for 10 min, 90ft 10 Min come up to 60 hang 10 min, up to 20 (64%?)and hang 20 min 10ft for 10min am I clear? assume I have the air SAC and I staged bottles I have 0 deep nitrox training, just what I learned in my Naui OW in 1982 and a few questions asked) And please stay with the spirit of this, I am not advocating diving deep with out training. before I really attempted it I would get real deco training.


So why would I take a class?, either it is because I do not have the confidence to learn on my own or because I want to accelerate the process, or maybe because there might be something that I did not know I needed to learn or maybe I am an egoist and need a badge.

Thread topic is "Redesigning AOW" and its sister thread "AOW=bs" obviously many people are not satisfied with this class.
Personally I intend to take it because I have to to get OWDI it will not matter to me if I learn nothing or lots it is a stepping stone, In fact in my situation it is to my advantage to have minimum dives, however when I do become a DI I plan to have dived to 200 ft at least once, been inside a wreck, and be fairly competent in UWphoto. I have no interest in ever going in a cave, or skydiving. So I would love it if the training in either AOW or DM included all that I need to safely accomplish all these tasks. I am not young and do not think that I can have it all in an instant, I think that AOW should be at least everything a sport diver needs to know to do all dives he might want to safely. and if there is no real content past being able to hang horizontal at 20 feet for 10 minutes then call it something else. how about "Experience Diving, everything we are sure you did not learn the first time"

 

[The_DivePirate]

Well, let's just say Sailnaked, too start with I wouldn't think your gonna get added 02 to any bottle without proper training. (well some training, proper or not) And if you were gonna get that training, why not dive to 200' on tri? Because if you were gonna get a bottle of 64%(for whatever reason, other than improper training, or none at all in this case) you would need a tri cert because an EANX cert only allows a mix to 40%. But as far as anything goes, as long as your not hurting me, go for it. What type of gear do you have? It may be worth coming too watch if the gear is something I may need. No pun intended, but, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT!!!

Joe