Redesigning AOW

[The_DivePirate]

Why the need to read his profile to make sense of his post? It seems he is saying not enough "advanced" skills are included in OW. No reason to climb up his ass for that.

Totally agree with the guy.

So your telling me after OW you were ready for deco training( did you have your tables MASTERED?) Or lifting "STUFF" from the bottom? ( How was your buoyancy? did you really have enough sense too ditch the reel if it backlashed and was taking you for a ride to the moon?) And again, did you have your bouyancy/finning mastered so well that you could enter a wreck or cave and not silt it out within the first few feet resulting in a TOTAL SILT OUT?, and if that were too happen did you have enough composure too keep your $h!t together and get yourself AND buddy out? Probably not, I know I wasn't, was anybody else here that good and ready for that? I don't think it is really the agencies lack of competency other than allowing under experienced divers too become instructors.That is why I think a divers should have more than 100 dives too become an instructor. I've known from the beginning I wanted too become an instructor but felt it would be a HUGE DISSERVICE to my students if had started that early in my diving career. My view is that I'd rather have an encyclopedia of knowledge and need a pee chee, than too have a pee chee and need a dictionary!! I'm sorry if anyone took offense too any of my posts, but I'm very passionate about turning out exceptional divers rather than divers that may go out and hurt themselves. Oh man, I need too stop before I say something that may get me in trouble with others in the know.:no This is one reason I like too stay in the closed forums.

Joe

 

[RJP]

All I asked for was an unbiased discussion...

Unbiased discussion, huh? You must be new to the internet!

 

[SailNaked]

Go get yourself some continuing ed.,...

if your ever in my neck of the woods let me know so I won't be around diving during that time.

Pure Irony.... (instructor huh?)

You wouldn't have a 3rd grader taking calculus before they new multiplication, division, algebra, and so on. They wouldn't have what it takes too carry on. They would probably learn too dislike math and drop out of school because of the humiliation.

agreed that is why I said you should teach more in AOW. obviously you consider OW divers 3rd graders...

So it is your considred opinion that you can not train someone to do deep dives unless they have 100 dives in what 40 feet? or teach them decompression stops and dive planning? I do not know what doing a lot of NDL dives has to do with the ability to learn that please explain. to be fair you said instructor still not real sure what that has to do with the ability to train and learn.

So Basicly you feel it just takes a lot of time to learn to do things and you are not willing to teach anyone that would like to learn at a faster pace.

Question was what would you like to see in AOW, and my opinion was more and lots of it, your reply was "your not experienced enough to learn what I know" interesting from an instructor. why?

Ok no problem when Im in your neck of the woods ill make sure you are not any where
around me.

 

[Blackwood]

[after OW] did you have your tables MASTERED?

Yes. And in subsequent courses (deco, et al) I've made them obsolete

 

[ucfdiver]

Pure Irony.... (instructor huh?)


agreed that is why I said you should teach more in AOW. obviously you consider OW divers 3rd graders...

So it is your considred opinion that you can not train someone to do deep dives unless they have 100 dives in what 40 feet? or teach them decompression stops and dive planning? I do not know what doing a lot of NDL dives has to do with the ability to learn that please explain. to be fair you said instructor still not real sure what that has to do with the ability to train and learn.

So Basicly you feel it just takes a lot of time to learn to do things and you are not willing to teach anyone that would like to learn at a faster pace.

Question was what would you like to see in AOW, and my opinion was more and lots of it, your reply was "your not experienced enough to learn what I know" interesting from an instructor. why?

Ok no problem when Im in your neck of the woods ill make sure you are not any where
around me.

Personally I was too tied up mastering what I learned in OW for my first several dives to be worried about decompression theory.

 

[The_DivePirate]

Ok, it seems that all you new divers have the whole curriculem thing figured out, so there is no need for my input. Besides that, there is not a damn thing I can do about it anyway. So for all of you that want it all right now, GOODLUCK!!!!
Joe

P.S.
oh yeah,
What the heck is up with you ucfdiver?
Your just now getting your cave cert.?
over 500 dives and no cave cert?
Boy, you must be a REAL SLOW learner.

 

[ucfdiver]

P.S.
oh yeah,
What the heck is up with you ucfdiver?
Your just now getting your cave cert.?
over 500 dives and no cave cert?
Boy, you must be a REAL SLOW learner.

This whole card collecting thing is new to me, I'm thinking about getting OW, Nitrox, Intro Cave, Full Cave, and either Rec Trimix or GUE Fundamentals, hopefully all within the next year.....is that a good collection? I don't have the good PADI ones like AOW, night diver, drysuit diver, etc, but I'm thinking I'll manage

I just didn't do cave because there were so many caverns I wanted to enjoy. Now that I've experienced those, it's time to go on. Truth be told, I don't care about certs, I just care about having training to be safe. I'm waiting for full cave to learn about decompression (beyond that taught in OW), as it's not really needed until then.

 

[Blackwood]

So it is your considred opinion that you can not train someone to do deep dives unless they have 100 dives in what 40 feet? or teach them decompression stops and dive planning? I do not know what doing a lot of NDL dives has to do with the ability to learn that please explain. to be fair you said instructor still not real sure what that has to do with the ability to train and learn.

It's not that you can't teach a new diver the academics of deco. It's that new divers are still figuring out basic things like buoyancy, and actually going through the motions would likely be overly tasking.

Granted, I agree with the sentiments that people coming out of open water should be more competent than they usually are. But it's the sad truth that most recent BOW grads would struggle (and probably bolt) with something exceedingly minor like the loss of a mask on ascent. Will they be able to come up from 200 feet in a controlled staged ascent and switch bottles at 70 and 20 feet without varying depth? Not likely. (If you know one who can, send him my way. He's a natural, and I'd probably be able to learn a thing or two from him)

 

[SailNaked]

I guess what I am really saying is that maybe people do not have the basics mastered right out of BOW and that would be why you would not teach AOW immediately after however skills like being relaxed in any situation underwater come with competent instruction and practice not xx sport dives. My point is #1 graduating BOW should mean that you can dive in your own comfort zone with a buddy unsupervised. You should feel confident that you can handle all open water situations, (mask knocks, inflator hose malfunction, fins falling off, buddy puking in regulator) you should have the basics of self rescue, and buddy rescue. I say you should have every thing you need to sport dive just like the cert says. (and someone will say it does not say that, but if so it should)

Now when you decide to take AOW, you should then be taught everything you need to do advanced diving (to a point, not 200 ft dive but at least 140ft with minor decomp) what else is the point of advanced Open water. well it seems from what I read the instructors saying AOW is only to master the skills you learned in BOW. hmm well I am not real interested as a consumer, no I do not know it all never claimed to. After I have 1000 dives I know I will not know it all.
I will take a course to learn something not get a card . (no this does not mean I know everything, It means I am very comfortable diving what I am currently diving)

So If things like being comfortable in the water, not silting up the environment, using a spool, decompression are needed to do advanced dives then these things should be part of AOW. Skills like buoyancy control are part of that then teach them and use them in the course.

And as far as posting stuff about what the stupid divers have done, WTH does that make you smarter? superior? or just an donkey posterior for not helping them do it right.

 

[Blackwood]

I guess what I am really saying is that maybe people do not have the basics mastered right out of BOW

Which is sad.

It seems that the consensus objection to AOW is the name. Many people have posted many ideas, but it really boils down to the word 'advanced'.

Many people who take it do so to get more face time with an instructor because they don't yet feel comfortable on their own. The rest take either it because some dive ops won't allow them access to certain sites without it, or because it is required for further training. With that in mind, I think AOW is fine as is. Semantics be damned. While AOW is no more "advanced" than Dive Rite is "right," it serves its purpose.

That people get through BOW while lacking the B(asics) is evidence that it's BOW, not AOW, that needs the overhaul.