Thankfully, all four divers came back out of the hole ...

[highdesert]

How was the diving by the way? Raja is still on my list of places to get to.

Cheers,
Rohan.

Totally different subject, and it's going to be after the holidays before post a trip report. I will only say this now ... for the part of RA we experienced, from Misool to Triton Bay, I think the diving has been overrated in print, IMHO. Others may have had other experiences, in this or other areas. We may go back and do other areas of RA, but we would not have done this trip, much less go back and do it again, knowing what we know now.

 

[Tassie_Rohan]

[thread hijack]

Interesting - Raja has always been sold as the centre for biodiversity: but does this just mean more varied small stuff and no big critters? I'll look forward to your trip report.

Cheers,
Rohan

[end thread hijack]

 

[Jim Ernst]

and where are the incident reports to back up the claim its guides that get people killed?

String.

It maybe that I stated that wrong....

Should I have said .. that is how people get themselves killed, By doing what they are not trained and or experienced enough to do and then following someone that is?

My point is... Don't go where you should not.

String.

Let me tell you a story.

I saw this with my own eye's.

A school that teaches everything from Open water to master Instructor, I watched the Instructors take Open Water student's down to 90 feet too do there Open Water skills, Does that give you any idea of where I am coming from.

I have more real life adventures that I can tell but I will leave this thread alone as I don't want to hijack it.

My point is... I have seen with my own eye's DM'S and Instructors do what ever they want and the NEW divers follow not knowing any better.

I normally agree and or concur with most of your post's and I think we are saying the same here.

If not.... Sorry you disagree, but that has been my experience on more then one occasion!

 

[mislav]

I'm curious - just what extra training and gear do some of the people here feel is required for such forays (doubles, 6 ft hoses, cave lines, redundant air and light sources, etc), or should such forays be banned for divers who are not cave/cavern certified?

To me it would be enough that a diver is in a good shape, has good buoyancy control, ability to deal with a flooded mask without panic and doesn't suffer from claustrophobia.

The situational awareness includes: monitored air supply to finish the dive with reserve left for the buddy, good buddy communication, necessary equipment (light). Diver's buddy must posses the same attributes.

The group needs an experienced, well trained professional guide who briefed them on what to expect and asked whether everyone feels comfortable entering the overhead (cavern, cave, wreck). There's always room for adapting to a new dive plan or backing out completely based upon the circumstances.

Well, at least this is what happens when I'm guiding such dives. Others may require their divers to be cave certified. I don't.

Again, I feel the OP has done well not getting himself into an uncomfortable situation. I do agree with String that while he may have not felt comfortable to enter the cave, his buddy might have and he shouldn't force his views on his buddy/wife. Yet, on this dive his wife was his buddy and from events described I'd say she wasn't a good one.

I also feel there's no excuse for not including such a significant detail of the dive into the briefing. If it were included this would have been a moment to discuss whether or not the divers were comfortable with the dive plan.

Without prior knowledge of this - the guide should have communicated with his group just before they were going to enter the overhead, I know I do. In case some guide drops this on you during the dive without prior knowledge you do have a choice and depending on your level of experience, skill and comfort can decide what is it you want to do. Not going in is definitely wise if you are not comfortable.

 

[TSandM]

Poking around silt-free and well lit holes that go back a few meters into the reef is common with just about every operation I've dived with in the asia-pacific region. . . I'm curious - just what extra training and gear do some of the people here feel is required for such forays (doubles, 6 ft hoses, cave lines, redundant air and light sources, etc), or should such forays be banned for divers who are not cave/cavern certified?

I don't think any specific training is required for silt-free, WELL-LIT holes. I did the Cathedrals at Lanai as an OW diver, and although they certainly meet the criteria for an overhead (rock over your head), they are well-lit, silt-free, and have multiple exits. Again, I don't think they are a great place for a novice who has no sense of how he'll react to problems, but then again, novice divers do those dives all the time.

I swam into about a 12 or 15 foot long tunnel in the reef in the BVI. I had watched the guide go in and out, and I'd been briefed that the tunnel was about that long, had no branches, and was big enough to turn around in. It was DEFINITELY an overhead environment, maybe about ten feet across, and daylight was still visible at the end of it. It was fun. I can't defend having done it as being something that was totally safe, but the risks were low enough that I was willing to take them. BUT I knew a lot about what was in the "hole" before I went in it. Even now, I wouldn't swim into a hole (especially one with silt) if I had no clue where it went, how long it was, how big it was, whether there were branches, whether you could turn around, etc.

 

[Hammerhead]

My first reaction is to contrast this situation with the Chandelier cave issue from another thread, because they're a beautiful contrast.

Assuming you mean Palau, I was taken (on about dive #30) to this cave and the dive briefing aboard arguably the best known liveaboard fleet consisted of an unimpressive sketch and "bring a light if you have one, but you won't really need it because it's a cavern and you can always see the light from the exit".

Suffice to say you can't.

The most spectacular dive I've done that I didn't enjoy one bit.

 

[Hammerhead]

"YOU". You should have replaced that with an "I". Anyone else is entitled to dive whatever and however they want so stop trying to force your views onto them.

Never put yourself in a situation where you'll have to blindly rely on a 3rd party to get you out of.

If you have to blindly rely on a buddy then id suggest you take a look at your own equipment, configuration and so on.

Leaving aside the inherent contradiction between your first post and the second two, which goes along the lines of "Don't tell anyone what to do, but this is what you should have done.", there are a couple of other points here.

1. I do not believe the OP was '[putting himself] in a situation where you'll have to blindly rely on a 3rd party" at all. A quick look at his profile shows that he's a PADI AOW diver, ergo trained to dive with a buddy.

There's nothing blind about that; it's the level of his training, and "equipment, configuration and so on" ain't going to change that. Mention more training and I might agree.

2. Returning to the first post, if the buddy in question was my wife, my kids, a friend or even a less experienced diver and the situation perhaps more dangerous than the one described, I'd have no hesitation in trying to stop them if I really thought they were liable to hurt themselves.

People make bad decisions, sometimes you're in a position to see that it's a bad decision, through experience, training or whatever.

I believe you have a responsibility, especially in a life-endangering position, to act accordingly to avoid the consequences of that bad decision.

Would you seriously ignore someone who was a accident waiting to happen (but unaware of the fact) because you feel that you shouldn't "force your views onto them"?

If you are an Instructor, I hope not.

 

[austriandiveress]

I find myself seriously on the fence here. While I agree that your wife should have stayed with you and decided with you whether or not to follow ( she is your buddy, and not the guide's), and also agree that it most certainly should have been mentioned in the briefing, I would be lying if I said that I probably wouldnt have followed the guide into this space. (after conferring with my buddy)
On which day of the liveaboard did this occur? Had this guide had the chance to observe your group underwater and judge your collective comfort level?
And, on the other side: if I understood correctly from your post, you felt that both guides were "obviously experienced" and you seemed to feel comfortable diving with them. You didnt seem to be concerned with their certification until this incident. We have all known lots of people (and there are apparently many here on SB) who are extremely good, experienced divers, who for whatever reason didnt get the appropriate certification "on paper" for their skill level.
Frankly, the most important thing for me is that a local guide know the dive sites, and that includes a knowledge of potential hazards. This guide apparantly felt that this cave/hole didnt present a challange that your group wasnt up to meeting. Was he right? I cant judge this. Did the divers who followed feel that they were in danger? If not, are they simply naive and also very lucky? I cant judge this either.
I really do applaud you for remembering your training and being concerned for your own well-being and that of your wife, but still; these thoughts occured to me as I read your post.

 

[highdesert]

Thanks for all the feedback. In the end, I still feel right about about what I did, at the same time realizing I could have done more ...

- First "entry" type situation on the trip not brought up in briefing
- Could have been closer to my wife to grab her before she entered
- Interior appeared silted and black
- Given it was later an "explored" system, there were apparently real hazards beyond the opening for an unprepared, untrained group, which I felt at the time to be the case
- Just because I thought of the DM's as experienced, they could still do something stupid ... everyone knows 1000-dive divers who are reckless, and some with far less experience with their head on straight.
- Should have talked to the DM right after the dive. Well, couldn't have talked to the one on that dive ... no English. But I could have talked to the other one who was the actual trip leader, so to speak.

In the future, my wife/buddy and I will have gone though a serious talk about (1) overhead environments or other hazards, and (2) buddy behavior. Yes, I get the bit about being a self-sufficient diver, not depending on others. But there is some reason behind the buddy system, right?

 

[scubafool]

The buddy system is what you and your buddy decide it is.

If the two of you decide that you are quite happy just being in the water at the same time, and telling eachother what you saw on your dives later, than that is your buddy system. Not one I choose, but hey.

If your idea of a buddy system is to physically hold hands the entire dive, with double pressure gauges on each of you so that you can monitor eachother's tank pressure, underwater communications, then fine, that is your buddy system. Neither would I choose that, but hey.

The thing is, you both need to agree on what you expect from eachother, and then dive that way. It sounds as though the two of you haven't arrived at that point yet.