Is safe second really needed?

[bamamedic]

Hmmm....

Interesting discussion so far. Now, for my two cents

I was trained as a NAUI OW diver, which means that I learned how to buddy breathe as well as use an AAS, such as an octo. I felt fairly confident in my ability to buddy breathe from depth. However, I've never done it for longer than a few breaths..

When I had to buddy breathe with my instructor in a recent tech class (we were simulating the failure of one diver's deco bottle and buddy breathing off the other bottle), I thought that it would be easy...after all, I've already been taught to do this, right? Two breaths and pass it back...not too complicated.

However, I found myself rapidly on the wrong end of CO2 buildup, from taking short, shallow breaths (which I didn't even realize I was doing until my instructor pointed it out afterwards). My instructor was taking long, deep breaths, so it felt like I had to wait forever for the regulator to be passed back. It only took a minute or two for me to feel air starvation. I found myself practically clutching the regulator, and on the last occasion it was passed back to me, I felt so starved for air, that I failed to clear the regulator and choked a bit of water. The instructor quickly opened the valve on my deco bottle and handed me back my own reg.

I thought that I would be just fine buddy breathing for an extended period, but quickly found out that if you throw in a lil' anxiety and a too-rapid respiratory rate...things can quicky become uncomfortable.

I can imagine, that in the stress of an OOA situation, that it would require quite a bit of training and practice to be able to ascend without it turning into a panic situation. Not unrealistic for two buddies who dive together often, but it would have to be a very frequently practiced skill (and not just a quick few cycles, but a few minutes spent buddy breathing every few dives or so). Even my NAUI OW course mentioned that if buddy breathing was to be relied upon, it needs to be practiced often.

If two divers are willing to put that kind of effort into practicing buddy breathing, then more power to them! However, I'm more than happy to plan for the use of an octo...buddy breathing is one tool in my toolbox, and I feel confident that I can buddy breathe if I absolutely have to, but it's not a tool that I would consider optimal in an OOA situation, at least not for my diving.

 

[pittyyofool]

This is the way I learned to aid a O2 toxing diver (or any found non responsive diver breathing or not) back in gee about 2000 when nitrox was not commonly used. If standards have changed please let me know. It is good info to have. YouTube - toxing diver rescue

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned an underwater rescue situation where a diver is found unconscious due to O2 poisoning from being to deep for there nitrox mix. An octo would aid in this situation you could supply them with a constant appropriate gas mix on the way to the surface. To me this is a strong argument and it has been failed to be mentioned. But this goes back to diving with the public, and my buddy and I only use gas mixes when we are planing a Deco dive. Then we are dressed in at least 1/2 HOG attire and have an octo.

I wouldn't mention that because I wouldn't put a regulator in the nouth of an unconscious diver. If the regulator is in place, I would hold it there as I brought the diver to the surface. If it was not in place, I would not replace it, I'd just bring the diver up.

If the diver's having a convulsion due to ox tox, I don't think bringing him up is a very good idea.

Now, I can't say I've had first-hand experience with a toxing diver ... but all the training I've had with respect to treating an ox tox hit says you get a reg into the diver's mouth and keep them at depth till the convulsion stops. Otherwise, you've got a closed larynx and a terminal case of Boyle's Law on your hands ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

There was no mention of convulsing.

YouTube - toxing diver rescue

Gee ... look at the video ... what's that diver doing?

How ELSE would you know a diver is toxing?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Slonda828]

That video on a tox rescue is awesome. This made me realize two things:

-I need to practice this.

-I have never dove nitrox without an octo, but now that I realize how difficult this type of rescue would be, I am going to mandate an octo as part of my nitrox diving kit.

Would a second stage fit into the mouth of someone having a seizure?

 

[Walter]

Gee ... look at the video ... what's that diver doing?

How ELSE would you know a diver is toxing?

1. I have no idea what that diver is doing, I'm not able to watch videos from here.

2. Assuming the diver is in a convulsion and I had watched the video, it was posted after my post, not before.

3. You wouldn't know the diver was toxing, but you might make an educated guess if you knew the diver's mix (should be on the tank).

4. It doesn't matter if you know if the diver is toxing or not, the procedure is the same for an unconscious diver.

5. The question was about an unconscious diver, not about a convulsing diver. If he meant a convulsing diver, he should have said "convulsing." It's not reasonable to assume anyone will refer to a person having a seizure as "unconscious."

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That video on a tox rescue is awesome. This made me realize two things:

-I need to practice this.

-I have never dove nitrox without an octo, but now that I realize how difficult this type of rescue would be, I am going to mandate an octo as part of my nitrox diving kit.

Would a second stage fit into the mouth of someone having a seizure?

Even in practice it's a lot more difficult than it looks in the video. I'm not certain, but I believe that's Andrew Georgitsis doing the rescue in the video. He has a way of making even the most difficult skills look easy.

Realistically, there's little risk of a tox to a recreational diver ... especially those who do the routine things like analyze their own mix and respect their MOD limit. But there's still enough risk to make the skill worth knowing ... there have been cases of someone toxing at less than the recommended PPO2.

Practice is definitely recommended ... it's difficult to hold someone at a constant depth for the minute or so it would take the seizure to pass, especially if that person's in doubles and carrying deco bottles (the highest risk of seizure is to the diver carrying multiple deco bottles who inadvertantly grabs the wrong reg and starts breathing a mix that's too rich for the depth).

Again, I've never had to do this for real (thank God) ... but I've had to perform it as a skill for a few different classes now, plus I teach this as part of my Rescue class. Where I dive it's a good skill for even recreationally-trained divers because Puget Sound gets so crazy deep so fast that it's common for recreational divers, tech divers on OC, and rebreather divers to be diving the same places at the same time. So ... like Forrest Gump's mama used to say ... you never know what you're gonna get.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Deefstes]

Just curious, and sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, but how quickly would a diver start toxing if he breaths the wrong gas? I mean, if a diver grabs the wrong reg and starts breathing high PPO2, will he start toxing after the first breath or how long would it take? Also, is it something that you can't see coming until you're toxing?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Just curious, and sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, but how quickly would a diver start toxing if he breaths the wrong gas? I mean, if a diver grabs the wrong reg and starts breathing high PPO2, will he start toxing after the first breath or how long would it take? Also, is it something that you can't see coming until you're toxing?

Like any other diving malady, the risks are variable and one diver may go completely symptom-free under the exact same circumstances that another diver would tox. There is no "safe" line ... rather there's this large "gray" area where the risks go up or down proportional to depth and time of exposure.

As for symptoms ... we use this acronym CONventid ... which stands for

• convulsions
• visual disturbances
• ears (ringing)
• nausea
• twitching
• irritability
• dizziness

As you can see from the list, most of those wouldn't be things your buddy would notice ... but you might notice yourself.

You might also notice that those same symptoms would be difficult to diagnose as an ox tox because they're so similar to symptoms of DCI ... or for that matter, symptoms of old age or personality.

Most times it's better to simply listen to that little voice in your head that tells you ... if you're feeling any of those things ... that it'd be a great idea to start heading to a shallower depth.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

The video does indeed show Andrew Georgitsis. I have also read a description he wrote of an actual toxing diver rescue. It was quite interesting. I drew some assumptions from it that were not stated.

The diver in question had been responsible for the fills for the dive and had mistakenly added O₂ instead of Helium to his tanks, and he did not analyze prior to the dive. A tox episode usually begins with an aura, with some of the symptoms Bob described above. This diver must have realized what was happening at this point (my guess) because he signalled to Andrew that he wanted to share air as he removed his regulator from his mouth.

He immediately went into the tonic-clonic part of the seizure, which is unmistakeable. Andrew donated his regulator and forced it into his mouth. The tonic-clonic phase lasted a couple of minutes, at which time no attempt to ascend was made. When the diver went into the sleep phase of the seizure, the ascent was started. A second tonic/clonic phase started, again lasting several minutes. Again the ascent was halted until the sleep phase began again. They surfaced successfully, and the diver had no ill effects afterwards.

Given the amount of time all this took, I concluded that the diver must have been breathing during the ascents, in which case it is nice that he had a regulator in his mouth. It is not clear how long these ascents took, but it was clearly long enough to cause problems otherwise.

I know the normally accepted procedure is not to replace a regulator for an unconscious diver, but based on what I read, I think I would try it for a toxing diver.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

Earlier in this thread I made a statement earlier about my PADI Rescue Diver Training. I wish to be as specific as possible about my recollection:

I was taught an "Unresponsive Diver at Depth" scenario which involves finding a diver at depth where you specifically do not know what has transpired and the diver is not moving. The obvious case is where you conduct a search for a missing diver and come upon the victim under water. No discussion was made of what to do if encountering a convulsing diver and how that might be handled differently.

While I have read certain things about toxing divers and watched UTD's video showing the toxing diver rescue scenario, I am not trained in the subject and all I was trying to say is that if you are asking me what to do about an unresponsive diver with their regulator out of their mouth, I answer I will try to conduct the rescue as I have been trained. Part of that training was to bring them to the surface immediately and refrain from replacing their regulator or forcing your own regulator into their mouth during the ascent.

If you say, "Yes, but what if the diver is suffering from oxygen toxicity?" I would then say I am not trained to handle this scenario. So my statement about not giving a regulator to an unconscious diver only applies to the scenarios taught to me in my PADI Rescue Diver course.

Sorry for the long-winded clarification, but I am very leery of someone reading what I wrote and misapplying it.