Is safe second really needed?

[Slonda828]

A HOG rig would be nothing but a constant fuss and tangle in this environment.

I have been experiencing this as well with my river diving. I may go to a j valve and just one second stage for my 20 foot deep river dives. I used to love my long hose until I started river diving. I was towing a float and some salvage last weekend and the current carried me into a log, which fouled me, my girlfriend, my salvage, and my float all at the same time. It's a good thing I'm patient. I think I can keep the BP/W, but I may have to ditch the long hose for riverine use. I had to go to my backup and completely unroute all 7 freaking feet of that hose to get out of that tangle. The stupid snap link on the primary second stage was so tangled I thought I was going to have to cut it, but thankfully I worked around it.

 

[pittyyofool]

If it were me I would Keep a pressure gauge on the regs even with a J-valve. I have done a few shallow vintage dives with my dads circa 1965 gear with no spg. I thought, there is a J- i don't need to put a spg on and ruin the vibe... well, on one of the dives the J- accidentally was knocked open, when it got hard to suck I reached back to flip the switch and it was already flipped.
So I had to do an ESA form 25ft. All worked out well I lived. You should be fine diving with no spg in 20ft of water, just be prepared to do a few ESA's. Practice them so it is not a surprise when you have to do one.

 

[rstofer]

If it were me I would Keep a pressure gauge on the regs even with a J-valve. I have done a few shallow vintage dives with my dads circa 1965 gear with no spg. I thought, there is a J- i don't need to put a spg on and ruin the vibe... well, on one of the dives the J- accidentally was knocked open, when it got hard to suck I reached back to flip the switch and it was already flipped.
So I had to do an ESA form 25ft. All worked out well I lived. You should be fine diving with no spg in 20ft of water, just be prepared to do a few ESA's. Practice them so it is not a surprise when you have to do one.

There are both J and K valves that have a HP port for an SPG. Given the SPG, the J function is redundant so I am buying the K versions when I find them.

But none of this solves the octo problem for my DW Mistral. This is a single stage regulator and there is no IP for an octo or power inflator. I'm not sure what I'll do about this. Probably keep the dives shallow and watch my buddy's SPG like a hawk.

Richard

 

[Brewski]

Why use an Octo?
besides the intended reason to make it easier to share air in an emergency.
You can use it yourself if your own reg is somehow inoperative, as illustrated by an earlier post.
Also I know of a buddy team (my cousin and his wife) who's SAC rates are so different, that they routinely share air during the dive to even out their gas so they aren't limited by one divers ability to consume air faster than the others.

 

[captain]

If it were me I would Keep a pressure gauge on the regs even with a J-valve. I have done a few shallow vintage dives with my dads circa 1965 gear with no spg. I thought, there is a J- i don't need to put a spg on and ruin the vibe... well, on one of the dives the J- accidentally was knocked open, when it got hard to suck I reached back to flip the switch and it was already flipped.
So I had to do an ESA form 25ft. All worked out well I lived. You should be fine diving with no spg in 20ft of water, just be prepared to do a few ESA's. Practice them so it is not a surprise when you have to do one.

Assming the J valve works which they do you need to check that it is in the up position just as often as you check an SPG. It is not a set and forget device. You should also have a ballpark idea how long your air will last at depth. Depending on the J valve sometimes you can tell if it is in or out of the reserve position by the sound during inhalation.

 

[Walter]

If you are ever unfortunate enough to be involved in a diving incident that encompasses a fatality or significant injury; and are caught up in post-incident litigation; and it comes out that you did not have a secondary regulator because you chose not to use one (even though using one is a norm in modern training); and that fact is portrayed successfully as a proximate cause for the harm that occurred; so you are judged partially liable; you may experience unpleasant side effects. These side effects may include intercourse with insurance companies. You may not be on top. You may not like it much.

I completely agree if you are an instructor and you are teaching and you were teaching that particular diver. You did not fullfill your duty of care. On the other hand, if you are not an instructor or you are an instructor, but that diver was not currently under instruction from you, there is no obligation to attempt a rescue. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred is the diver ran out of air. It might be shown he never learned to buddy breathe. That might be a "proximate cause for the harm that occurred." If so, it goes back to the agency through which he was certified for not requiring the training. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred cannot be someone under no obligation to the diver not taking responsibility for that diver's lack of training and lack of ability to monitor his air supply. Next folks will be claiming it's my fault because I didn't have enough air to bring an OOA air hog to the surface. Double 131s would have done the trick. This is just silly.

 

[muddiver]

I have been experiencing this as well with my river diving. I may go to a j valve and just one second stage for my 20 foot deep river dives. I used to love my long hose until I started river diving. I was towing a float and some salvage last weekend and the current carried me into a log, which fouled me, my girlfriend, my salvage, and my float all at the same time. It's a good thing I'm patient. I think I can keep the BP/W, but I may have to ditch the long hose for riverine use. I had to go to my backup and completely unroute all 7 freaking feet of that hose to get out of that tangle. The stupid snap link on the primary second stage was so tangled I thought I was going to have to cut it, but thankfully I worked around it.

This is a great example of why "one size fits all" thechniques of setting up gear and diving procedures do not always work in all situations. As you have found out, cave diving techniques do not necessarily apply well to river and high entanglement diving situations.

Personally I think the whole long hose set-up has been taken totally out of context from the double tank cave diving relm. If you are not diving doubles you really don't need such a long hose to share breathing gas.

 

[Peter Guy]

Walter wrote

The proximate cause for the harm that occurred cannot be someone under no obligation to the diver not taking responsibility for that diver's lack of training and lack of ability to monitor his air supply.

Walter, as much as I respect your diving experience and knowledge, as I wrote on another thread, if you want to give legal opinions, go to Law School and suffer like the rest of us.

Under the OP's original scenario, he has accepted the obligation to donate by initiating buddy breathing. Once you have accepted the obligation, you then DO HAVE to "do it right" (I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist!) under the current standards within "the industry." And I believe the current standard is to use a "safe second" rather than buddy breathe. So, IF you have opted to buddy breathe instead of use an octo, you may have increased your liability.

Also, please do not forget, the "industry standard" is that you dive with a buddy and you owe your buddy the obligation of being a "good buddy" which probably means being able to donate a working reg rather than buddy breathe. (See Rasmussen v. Bendotti)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I completely agree if you are an instructor and you are teaching and you were teaching that particular diver. You did not fullfill your duty of care. On the other hand, if you are not an instructor or you are an instructor, but that diver was not currently under instruction from you, there is no obligation to attempt a rescue. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred is the diver ran out of air. It might be shown he never learned to buddy breathe. That might be a "proximate cause for the harm that occurred." If so, it goes back to the agency through which he was certified for not requiring the training. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred cannot be someone under no obligation to the diver not taking responsibility for that diver's lack of training and lack of ability to monitor his air supply. Next folks will be claiming it's my fault because I didn't have enough air to bring an OOA air hog to the surface. Double 131s would have done the trick. This is just silly.

Gotta agree with Peter on this one (and I did check with an attorney at one point a few years back when I started teaching this stuff).

As a non-professional diver you are under no obligation to help anyone. However, once you attempt to help, you have ASSUMED a duty. The standard of care for that duty will be determined by your actions and your level of training.

If you were trained to use a safe second, you will be held to that standard.

The (illogical) conclusion is that if you're diving without one, you're better off ... from a liability standpoint ... swimming away from the scene rather than attempting to buddy-breathe that diver to the surface.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

if you want to give legal opinions, go to Law School and suffer like the rest of us.

It's a personal opinion. I've never claimed to be qualified to give a legal opinion. If I were qualified to give legal opinions, I wouldn't open myself up to the liability of giving them willy nilly on the internet.

Under the OP's original scenario, he has accepted the obligation to donate by initiating buddy breathing. Once you have accepted the obligation, you then DO HAVE to "do it right" (I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist!) under the current standards within "the industry."

That's my understanding as well. OOA diver gets 4 breaths then passes it back to the donating diver who takes 2, pass back to OOA diver who takes 2. Both divers keep a firm grip on the regulator at all times. The other hand grabs the BC of the other diver, letting go as necessary to adjust buoyancy, etc. Whem both divers are comfortable and the exchanges are going smoothly, they start a slow ascent, stopping at 15 feet if the air suppy permits.

I believe the current standard is to use a "safe second" rather than buddy breathe. So, IF you have opted to buddy breathe instead of use an octo, you may have increased your liability.

I don't believe you'll be able to sell that one to a jury. I didn't have an octo, so I went with the only option available - buddy breathing. I did it by the book. If he wasn't qualified to buddy breathe, he should have asked for assistance from his buddy who had (I'm guessing) an octo. Buddy breathing has been a standard of training for decades.

See Rasmussen v. Bendotti

Interesting reading. It only applies to buddies, not to strangers, it doesn't involve buddy breathing (or sharing air in any manner) and the Rasmussens lost (although on a point that doesn't apply in the hypothetical case we are discussing). I think (personal opinion, not legal opinion) applying this case would be a big stretch.