Is safe second really needed?

[Doc Intrepid]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, Walter, but I don't believe that buddy breathing has been 'a standard of training' for the majority of scuba instructors for at least the past decade. Whether it should be, of course, is a different matter.

IMHO whether a diver uses a safe second or not is, like most other issues, a decision weighing potential utility against inconvenience or cost.

Diving in thick kelp aside, in most cases I suspect that offering a safe second stage to another OOA diver is a better option than buddy breathing, for various reasons. Liability is only one of them.

Regards,

Doc

 

[Gombessa]

It's a personal opinion. I've never claimed to be qualified to give a legal opinion.

Well, to be fair; proximate cause, duty of care...if you're bandying about legal terms of art willy-nilly, it sure sounds like you're making a legal analysis. You can say after the fact that it was just a personal opinion, but by the same token Peter's admonition was appropriate under the circumstances.

I didn't have an octo, so I went with the only option available - buddy breathing. I did it by the book. If he wasn't qualified to buddy breathe, he should have asked for assistance from his buddy who had (I'm guessing) an octo.

This was my thought as well; I got the impression that Peter's scenario applied more for a person who had an octo, and opted for a buddy breathe rescue instead. If you have no duty to dive with an octo for the benefit of strangers, I imagine the analysis would be different (though the question of "why" you did so would probably be brought up as a separate issue).

 

[Teamcasa]

Why use an Octo?
Also I know of a buddy team (my cousin and his wife) who's SAC rates are so different, that they routinely share air during the dive to even out their gas so they aren't limited by one divers ability to consume air faster than the others.

My wife and I do this when are renting tanks.

Having to do buddy breathing in the 70's, I can tell you first hand that using an Octo is much easier. Sometimes, new stuff is actually better stuff, why not take advantge of it.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Go ahead, do what you like.

Make sure you can live with yourself when you come upon another diver in distress who is already starting to panic and can't manage to control themselves well enough to buddy breath. If it does happen, however unlikely, can you live with knowing that your refusal to abide by community standards likely cost someone their life?

If so, go for it.

But I pray no one ever has to count on you to help them.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

"Yes, the main reason is eliminating hose and drag, as i love to dive in kelp forests thicker than the amazon. (i only know of 3 patties this thick in so.cal) Kelp that has to be pushed threw has a way of catching on EVERYTHING! I am very tucked up neat when I dive and like being a minimalist. What I don't absolutely need is left on the boat because the chances of it just being in the way diving are high. I am so particular as to mount my knife on the inside of my harness cumberbun with the Handel towards my feet, and my computer is belly mounted under a Velcro flap. I have made nylon straps to go between my 1st stage and my shoulder D-rings to limit my valve getting hooked. If it gets caught on kelp that is 1 to many times and something needs to change. A HOG rig would be nothing but a constant fuss and tangle in this environment."

If this is your situation, you might want to PM Nemrod and ask him to send you a photo of his rig. He uses an 'alternate air source' which is not a 2nd second stage - its about as low profile as anything I've ever seen. Nemrod has posted photos of his rig in different threads on the board. It may work out well for you as an alternative to buddy breathing (sounds like buddy breathing in kelp that thick might present its own set of challenges...). OTOH, sounds like ANY sort of emergency response in kelp that thick could get exciting!

 

[captain]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, Walter, but I don't believe that buddy breathing has been 'a standard of training' for the majority of scuba instructors for at least the past decade. Whether it should be, of course, is a different matter.

IMHO whether a diver uses a safe second or not is, like most other issues, a decision weighing potential utility against inconvenience or cost.

Diving in thick kelp aside, in most cases I suspect that offering a safe second stage to another OOA diver is a better option than buddy breathing, for various reasons. Liability is only one of them.

Regards,

Doc

If the standard of training now is the octo then I was never trained in its use since my training was in an era when buddy breathing was the standard so legal logic (oxymoron) would say I would be in violation of my training if I offered an OOA diver an octo and within my training if I initiated buddy breathing.

 

[Walter]

If the standard of training now is the octo then I was never trained in its use since my training was in an era when buddy breathing was the standard so legal logic (oxymoron) would say I would be in violation of my training if I offered an OOA diver an octo and within my training if I initiated buddy breathing.

I agree with you, but I think others might say it's your responsibility to get training in octo use to make up for the agencies' lowering of standards. It's never an agency's fault.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I'd guess that were it to become a legal question, a jury would be easily led to believe that proper use of an octo is so mind-numbingly obvious to an experienced diver that lack of specific training is not an acceptable excuse, and that keeping up with common practices is a responsibility of a certified diver.

Regardless of if that's the case or not, I would be jurors would agree to such a premise.

 

[Slonda828]

Go ahead, do what you like.

Make sure you can live with yourself when you come upon another diver in distress who is already starting to panic and can't manage to control themselves well enough to buddy breath. If it does happen, however unlikely, can you live with knowing that your refusal to abide by community standards likely cost someone their life?

If so, go for it.

But I pray no one ever has to count on you to help them.

Ooooh....thanks for the warning man, I was totally unaware that this could happen until you came along, pulled you smaller than average opinion out, and flopped it on the thread. Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Do you have any others? A stitch in time saves nine maybe?

Seriously though, when we dive without octos, we dive in our own group. If some random picked a dive buddy who is inept and leaves him, than maybe he should be more worried about whom he dives with than the fact that my friends and I do not have octos.

Can you live with the fact that I do not care if you care if I dive without an octo?

 

[wetbehindthegears]

I was told once to stay away from a diver ( who had no octo) because he wouldn't help me if I got in trouble

I carry an integrated inflator/octo, it is held close to my body with a retractable keeper...no bashing problems
I also carry a pony, which I can quickly detatch and hand to my buddy if they need it ( so there is no problem with them grabbing my reg)
carry one if you want...don't carry one if you don't want to...I don't care as you are not my buddy