DIR Forum

[Sloth]

Let me shorten that for you Trace;

"Do guys like me bother posting or quit participating in DIR forums where the climate seems to be one that frowns upon debate and is just waiting for Godot to arrive with the latest memo?"

Yes we like you posting provided you answer a DIR question with DIR answer without drowning us in a novel about all the GUE/UTD guys you know and about how there are other ways to approach diving.

I think everyone that has spent 30 minutes on this site knows there are other ways to dive. I tend to think that those that are looking for very specific "DIR" answers tend to do so in the DIR forum and maybe they actually want the kool-aid answer. I know that when I ask a question in here I do so looking for a UTD or GUE answer. I am not looking for a Solo divers answer, a PDIC answer or a rebreather divers answer. If that is what I wanted then I would go to the appropriate sub-forum.

Now excuse me while I go and tell all the solo divers in the solo diving forum how much better team diving is. I do after all have my SDI solo cert so I know all about it.

Mark

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Mark,

Kevin was right about this being an insular community.

If you only knew the realities of what you worship ... you may be more inclined to think for yourself and welcome information.

When I first started technical diving, I thought DIR had all the answers. Now, I know better. Some of it was poorly thought through to make their pegs fit every hole or deny that holes exist. That was disappointing. In finding solid advice elsewhere, I was able to plug such gaps.

Even those who teach the Kool-Aid often don't like the Kool-Aid answers will educate you otherwise. Of course, many of these get tossed out. If you take a trip back on The Wayback Machine and watch the instructor cadre of GUE unfold, grow, change, you'll will see names who were often considered "the best of the best" and had amazing histories and experience to back up their roles as educators. They were the thinkers, the doers, the inventors, and the implementors. Now, looking at most of those who are teaching, they are the followers and the disciples, but are lacking the marrow of those who were the explorers and not the by-products of a cult mentality.

It would be one thing if the participants in this forum criticized without knowledge and experience with DIR. But, shouldn't DIR trained divers be able to voice their opinions having knowledge of a topic. "Isn't a diver's right to dive solo on non-DIR dives?" and, "Shouldn't the organizations stay out of diver's personal time and freedoms?" be valid issues for community debate the same as opinions such as "Are there really changes in the procedure for rescuing an unconscious diver with less attention paid to airway management?"

DIR Practitioner 1: What is the DIR solution to a panicked diver on a long hose?

DIR Practitioner 2: I don't know, but in my NACD cave class shutting down the right post was an option.

Or ... a poster with such a question could be told to wait for the official response from a selected DIR representative. If that's what this sub-forum is about, it certainly isn't what the GUE instructors are doing as these issues are debated around fire pits and in the "board room".

This community eats its own. It doesn't matter if you are Fundies or Cave 3 - personal opinions are as terrifying to some members of this community as being separated from the hive is to the Borg. If George Irvine posted here today, he'd probably receive less respect than he'd deserve from a DIR public that received the memo that he didn't always play nicely with others.

Some of you people trained in DIR, and living in DIR information land, question your abilities to speak about DIR. Stop believing in "isms" and start believing in yourselves.

 

[MonkSeal]

If you only knew the realities of what you worship ... you may be more inclined to think for yourself and welcome information.

When I first started technical diving, I thought DIR had all the answers. Now, I know better. Some of it was poorly thought through to make their pegs fit every hole or deny that holes exist. That was disappointing. In finding solid advice elsewhere, I was able to plug such gaps.

Good for you.

If you take a trip back on The Wayback Machine and watch the instructor cadre of GUE unfold, grow, change, you'll will see names who were often considered "the best of the best" and had amazing histories and experience to back up their roles as educators. They were the thinkers, the doers, the inventors, and the implementors.

People joining and leaving different organizations because of different reasons. But of course you know that thinkers, doers and inventors have been tossed out.

Now, looking at most of those who are teaching, they are the followers and the disciples, but are lacking the marrow of those who were the explorers and not the by-products of a cult mentality.

Of course you know them all and you know about their lack of ability to think and their worshiping of our cult. I thought that bashing isn't idea of this forum. Obviously, I was wrong.

It would be one thing if the participants in this forum criticized without knowledge and experience with DIR. But, shouldn't DIR trained divers be able to voice their opinions having knowledge of a topic. "Isn't a diver's right to dive solo on non-DIR dives?" and, "Shouldn't the organizations stay out of diver's personal time and freedoms?" be valid issues for community debate the same as opinions such as "Are there really changes in the procedure for rescuing an unconscious diver with less attention paid to airway management?"

Blah, blah, ...

Or ... a poster with such a question could be told to wait for the official response from a selected DIR representative. If that's what this sub-forum is about, it certainly isn't what the GUE instructors are doing as these issues are debated around fire pits and in the "board room".

Yes, when we see such complicated questions we run to JJ and ask for the answer. Then we pretend to be clever and reply to poster.

This community eats its own. It doesn't matter if you are Fundies or Cave 3 - personal opinions are as terrifying to some members of this community as being separated from the hive is to the Borg.

I don't believe that somebody can invest some time to write such bunch of crap. I don't believe I've wasted my time time to read this and reply.

BR,
Emir

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I also offered to mod (just last week) because I thought there is no way this should be all put on Lamont. But after seeing the political nonsense that goes on with SB I figgered that I don't care enough what goes on here to commit my time only to end up banging my head against a wall of trollmods.

The DIR forum's gone downhill...

As of now, it's mostly moderated by senior staffers who either have nothing but a PADI background, or those who have an obvious anti-DIR bias. In either case, it makes the forum worthless ... nothing more than just another place where people can bash those who dive DIR as they please, which could just as easily occur in the Basic Discussions forum.

Since Pete and his staff are no longer interested in enforcing their own rules for the forum ... and in fact, some of the worst offenders are the SB staff ... I think the DIR Forum shoulld simply be removed. It's a statement of how Pete values the participation of DIR proponents here ... which is not at all.

I've never seen much sense in creating rules, then allowing staff members to flaunt them ... but ScubaBoard has a long history of just that, which is why I gave up being a staff member some years ago.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I know of so many excellent DIR-trained educators who have had enough of message boards and forums. I used to get a lot of abuse from my former girlfriend, a top cave instructor trained by most of the world's best in everything she did - including having mostly the origional GUE cave gurus as her mentors, for participating in forums and boards. Personally, I'm beginning to think working out more and participating in boards less (or no longer) would be a better use of time. I love to learn and educate, but the more I learn from boards makes me less inclined to want to educate.

So, the question is, do guys like me bother posting or quit participating in DIR forums where the climate seems to be one that frowns upon debate and is just waiting for Godot to arrive with the latest memo?

By the way, I already know what that memo will contain.

I see a difference between honest debate and the train wrecks that most DIR-centric discussions become ... the same people always chiming in with the same comments. I've seen it so often I could practically write the thread as soon as I see the original post.

It gets tiring after a while.

Mike Kane used to be a regular participant here. Brandon Schwartz did too, as did Joe Talavera. Andrew Georgitsis participated here for a time. Hell, even Jarrod dropped in once in a while.

None of them would touch this place anymore.

Why is that, do you suppose?

I think it was because they decided that arguing with some dude who happened to own a PADI 5-Star facility (and an agenda) ... or worse yet, some 50-dive "expert" who had an axe to grind because some perceived "DIR diver" wasn't nice to him ... was a waste of time.

... Bob (GratefuL Diver)

 

[MonkSeal]

Since Pete and his staff are no longer interested in enforcing their own rules for the forum ... and in fact, some of the worst offenders are the SB staff ... I think the DIR Forum shoulld simply be removed. It's a statement of how Pete values the participation of DIR proponents here ... which is not at all.

Luckily, there are other friendly web places (like DIR-X) where people interested in getting sound advice can go. SB DIR forum is becoming more and more like TDS DIR forum.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Mark,

Kevin was right about this being an insular community.

If you only knew the realities of what you worship ... you may be more inclined to think for yourself and welcome information.

When I first started technical diving, I thought DIR had all the answers. Now, I know better. Some of it was poorly thought through to make their pegs fit every hole or deny that holes exist. That was disappointing. In finding solid advice elsewhere, I was able to plug such gaps.

Even those who teach the Kool-Aid often don't like the Kool-Aid answers will educate you otherwise. Of course, many of these get tossed out. If you take a trip back on The Wayback Machine and watch the instructor cadre of GUE unfold, grow, change, you'll will see names who were often considered "the best of the best" and had amazing histories and experience to back up their roles as educators. They were the thinkers, the doers, the inventors, and the implementors. Now, looking at most of those who are teaching, they are the followers and the disciples, but are lacking the marrow of those who were the explorers and not the by-products of a cult mentality.

It would be one thing if the participants in this forum criticized without knowledge and experience with DIR. But, shouldn't DIR trained divers be able to voice their opinions having knowledge of a topic. "Isn't a diver's right to dive solo on non-DIR dives?" and, "Shouldn't the organizations stay out of diver's personal time and freedoms?" be valid issues for community debate the same as opinions such as "Are there really changes in the procedure for rescuing an unconscious diver with less attention paid to airway management?"

DIR Practitioner 1: What is the DIR solution to a panicked diver on a long hose?

DIR Practitioner 2: I don't know, but in my NACD cave class shutting down the right post was an option.

Or ... a poster with such a question could be told to wait for the official response from a selected DIR representative. If that's what this sub-forum is about, it certainly isn't what the GUE instructors are doing as these issues are debated around fire pits and in the "board room".

This community eats its own. It doesn't matter if you are Fundies or Cave 3 - personal opinions are as terrifying to some members of this community as being separated from the hive is to the Borg. If George Irvine posted here today, he'd probably receive less respect than he'd deserve from a DIR public that received the memo that he didn't always play nicely with others.

Some of you people trained in DIR, and living in DIR information land, question your abilities to speak about DIR. Stop believing in "isms" and start believing in yourselves.

Trace, that dawg just don't hunt with a lot of the folks who participate in this forum. I have known those who enjoyed endless arguments about minutae ... have laughed myself silly over threads about stupid stuff like whether or not bent D-rings were "DIR" ... but the folks who considered that important have mostly passed through and are off being "the best" at some other activity these days ... they weren't interested enough to see the big picture.

So I ask this of you ... why do you think the DIR forum exists? Why wouldn't the discussions you're espousing be just as appropriate for the Basic Discussions forum? Why do you think the rules posted in a sticky at the top of the DIR forum are there?

And most importantly, why do you think they are not being enforced?

Dan Volker once said ... "The "Why" is a huge part of DIR. I would go so far as to say that if you are not getting a good "why" answer, then the DIR person you are asking may not really be DIR".

I'm interested in your views in response to my questions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RTodd]

Trace, one of my mentors, a WKPP member, was on the famous Wha Wha dive. I know all about using 50% at 80' to help pull off the accelerated deco, diving deep solo, etc. that went on by WKPP divers outside of team dives. When GUE was formed I am sure it had the same issues. I only know a few of the cave instructors now and I am fairly confident in saying they pretty much practice as they preach. Frankly, to the point where it can drive me nuts.

For example, everyone on an experienced dropping a cookie on a dive with 10+ Ts since it is a "fun" dive is crazy. But, that is the minor details and of course there is some variance in compliance with that. The point of DIR is to dive in the safest most efficient manner possible. Of course that hasn't been acheived. But using that as an excuse to propose obviously stupid practices is a very lame argument that has been seen over and over. Are the more experienced divers on here safer doing a solo caribbean dive than 95% of buddy teams out there. Of course. But, that isn't the point. They are even safer doing it as a DIR team dive. Those that want to argue the finer points of bending the rules should do it on a non-DIR forum rather than ruining this one.

As for NetDoc, I have not been entirely fair in my frustrations regarding his seeming unwillingness to remove some of the problem staff that post here. He does actually get DIR and wants this forum to work. But, there is obviously a back room issue of removing the two primary offenders and a few others. What that is complete escapes me. I resigned as DIR mod because I would rather be able to hit back than feel obligated to comply with forum rules the violators are ingoring when I couldn't stop it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Those that want to argue the finer points of bending the rules should do it on a non-DIR forum rather than ruining this one.

This comment is worth emphasizing ... it is a succinct statement of the solution to what is wrong with the DIR forum.

It is also a violation of the rules that Pete established for this forum ... but his non (or anti) DIR staff has never seen fit to enforce.

If you don't know DIR ... if you have some issue with DIR ... if you think some other way works better ... then you should post your views elsewhere.

This also is worth emphasizing ...

1) No trolling! This is not the place for agency bashing! This is especially not a place for bashing DIR divers. Refer to Notice: the DIR forum is a No Trolling Zone for any questions about what constitutes a troll.
2) This forum is for a free exchange of ideas concerning DIR, but it is NOT intended to limit any mention of DIR to only this forum. There are many things pertaining to DIR that will be discussed in other forums as well.
3) All the rules of the board still apply here. You don't get to harrass or call people names. Civility should rule.
4) Most of all, have fun and learn something at the same time. Read our Mission statement and TOS for clarification.
5) This forum is NOT intended to replace or reduce the need for training with a qualified instructor. You might get more out of this forum if you have at least completed a DIR-f course.
6) The answers in this forum are member's best attempts to answer questions within, and according the DIR diving philosophy. If you wish to give a non-DIR answer, please do not post it in this forum. If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum.

SB Staffers need to either observe and enforce the rules ... or get rid of the rules. Because as it stands today, they're a bad joke. And some of the worst offenders are SB Staffers. You guys really need to set a better example.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nadwidny]

SB Staffers need to either observe and enforce the rules ... or get rid of the rules.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I vote to get rid of rule 3. Because it gets in the way of rule 4.