Mermaids or Aquanauts?

[saltynay]

sorry to be late to the proceedings but would just like to mention many of the DM's working on the boats are infact customers the same as you guys just we are interns therefore even less well regarded. When I am a DM on the boat I try my best to make sure that we have as many dive leaders as possible to individualise your diving experiences as best as I can so that you ultimately have a days diving limited only by your own abilities and our safety limits. I do put customers with DMT's and at a push Rescue divers and MSD's as I am forced by my own standards for quality and the number of customers the shop assigns to us.

1 member of senior staff (truly employed shop staff is normally on a boat for the day) however the intern is expected to prep the majority of items for the boat, kit up customers, ensure there kit is loaded onto the boat, give the briefings, check customers are teamed up and happy, do the role calls, dive again leading customers (I have been forced to dive lead even though I wanted to study on the boat quietly), check customers back, wash and check rental kit, load the bus, unload the bus and get customers home, wash the rental kit and put away and finally check which boat they want me on tomorrow to do the whole thing again. I am a paying customer as well and paying infinitely more then you are for my courses but still try and make it as comfortable as possible for you guys as I can with the resources available to me. The senior staff members in my eyes are very helpful but more there to delegate and supervise then to directly look after customers.

If you dive with mermaids again I would recommend you go on Mermaids 3 it is normally the boat most interns go on and the best organised as it is the smaller boat. This very reason is why mermaids 1&4 are sometimes lacking in dive leaders and thus your experiences may be faulted. If you would like to try with mermaids again pm your booking to me and I will try and get on the same boat and happily discuss this with you as a third party whom also has dislikes against the store but also sees the benefits to their system.

We abide by safety limits to ensure that there is standardised measures of safety so that our emergency action plans can be utilised effectively. I know experienced divers may be able to dive for 1.5 hours on a coral dive with 200 bar however what if a dive group is unable to and becomes tangled at 50 minutes into the dive that leaves 40 minutes before the boat even thinks about trying to find them. For our deep dives 30 minute limit is that on the RDP thus your dive computers will allow your NDLs to go further however those on tables who neglected to inform us are not.

 

[penguintom]

sorry to be late to the proceedings but would just like to mention many of the DM's working on the boats are infact customers the same as you guys just we are interns therefore even less well regarded. When I am a DM on the boat I try my best to make sure that we have as many dive leaders as possible to individualise your diving experiences as best as I can so that you ultimately have a days diving limited only by your own abilities and our safety limits. I do put customers with DMT's and at a push Rescue divers and MSD's as I am forced by my own standards for quality and the number of customers the shop assigns to us.

1 member of senior staff (truly employed shop staff is normally on a boat for the day) however the intern is expected to prep the majority of items for the boat, kit up customers, ensure there kit is loaded onto the boat, give the briefings, check customers are teamed up and happy, do the role calls, dive again leading customers (I have been forced to dive lead even though I wanted to study on the boat quietly), check customers back, wash and check rental kit, load the bus, unload the bus and get customers home, wash the rental kit and put away and finally check which boat they want me on tomorrow to do the whole thing again. I am a paying customer as well and paying infinitely more then you are for my courses but still try and make it as comfortable as possible for you guys as I can with the resources available to me. The senior staff members in my eyes are very helpful but more there to delegate and supervise then to directly look after customers.

If you dive with mermaids again I would recommend you go on Mermaids 3 it is normally the boat most interns go on and the best organised as it is the smaller boat. This very reason is why mermaids 1&4 are sometimes lacking in dive leaders and thus your experiences may be faulted. If you would like to try with mermaids again pm your booking to me and I will try and get on the same boat and happily discuss this with you as a third party whom also has dislikes against the store but also sees the benefits to their system.

We abide by safety limits to ensure that there is standardised measures of safety so that our emergency action plans can be utilised effectively. I know experienced divers may be able to dive for 1.5 hours on a coral dive with 200 bar however what if a dive group is unable to and becomes tangled at 50 minutes into the dive that leaves 40 minutes before the boat even thinks about trying to find them. For our deep dives 30 minute limit is that on the RDP thus your dive computers will allow your NDLs to go further however those on tables who neglected to inform us are not.

I am afraid what you are saying is anything but what I have experienced as a diving customer.
Yes as you rightly state interns themselves are also paying customers, but are doing what they are engaged in through choice.
Personally I dont feel the problem lies with the interns themselves it is the shops. At least one days diving that I did last year was led by someone who was quite clearly very inexperienced, and it spoilt my day as I feel the dives were not conducted to a standard that I expect or have previously experienced.
My view is that if shops want to use diving customers as training fodder for interns they should make the customer aware at the time of booking and charge a lower rate accordingly.
If they want to charge the full price, in my mind they should provide fully qualified and experienced dive professionals, which incidentally is what i was prommised when I made the booking.

 

[h90]

I am afraid what you are saying is anything but what I have experienced as a diving customer.
Yes as you rightly state interns themselves are also paying customers, but are doing what they are engaged in through choice.
Personally I dont feel the problem lies with the interns themselves it is the shops. At least one days diving that I did last year was led by someone who was quite clearly very inexperienced, and it spoilt my day as I feel the dives were not conducted to a standard that I expect or have previously experienced.
My view is that if shops want to use diving customers as training fodder for interns they should make the customer aware at the time of booking and charge a lower rate accordingly.
If they want to charge the full price, in my mind they should provide fully qualified and experienced dive professionals, which incidentally is what i was prommised when I made the booking.

the next step than is, because the interns are not experienced, they add some unreasonable safety rules.

I dove the Khrams wrack:
max time 45 min. min. pressure 70 bar (instead of the 50 because it is sooooo deep)
when you go up the boat, you need to have the mask on and the regulator in the mouth (mirror flat sea).
When going back on the boat the "Scuba-Policeman" checked all if they really have the 70 bar and not over 30 meter (I think the bottom is around 32 meter so how someone go deeper???).
Next time, different DM....complete normal relaxed diving.

 

[saltynay]

Some divemasters lead in different ways, on different dive sites and with different customers. Some days I am a dive leader and try and lead customers like sheep to different dive sites so that they can tick off boxes in their head of what they have seen. Other times I merely dawdle along checking the group is ok and doing the navigation with customers actually leading having shown them the site map at their own pace and pointing out points of interest if we happen to pass them, I then decide when to turn back and navigate hopefully straight back to the ladder for the group. If you prefer a particular style then tell your dive leader.

That is upto the DM's discretion on the boat. The wind could of very easily picked up and waves created as the khram is in a fairly unprotected area, those divers inexperienced with using a ladder in open seas may fall, thus possibly breathing in water and causing possible near drowning injuries, which would require hospital treatment. The mask on rule is to stop divers becoming disorientated if they do fall back and not crowding the ladder is simple common sense. We don't expect you to do any more then the rules your dive master is following, if he is not then discretely have a word with him or the staff member in charge of the boat. Chris W or Phil B are normally the staff members in control on khram days

45 mins is a strange limit as following the table and the max depth of the khram being 31.6 metres according to my log your ndls would be a serious issue before that limit. It should be 70 bar back at the line therefore 50+ bar at the surface. If you have unbalanced regulators like our rental stock is then you find it harder to breathe at 35 bar at around 18m hence our safety limit of 50 back on the boat. If you suffer from DCS your dive computer will be collected and given to the appropriate authorities such as dan if you are more then .5 metres beyond your training at that time on any dive in your computers history then DAN are not obliged to pay up as you have exceeded your training limit. Assuming your AOW your max depth is 30m and therefore you should not be playing in the sand at the bottom of the wreck.

We log every diver, every day and the logs are stored so if any injury should occur and an accident report is required, then we can show what diving you have done with us, how much air you consumed at max depth and at what times you did your dives.

 

[stevenl]

I know some DC's that use cheap labour to guide dives but here it is even worse. There are guests paying to have the honour to guide dives. This must be the cheapest labour ever. And yes, as a paying guest I would be very PO'd not having a professional guiding me as I'd expect.

 

[lord khram]

I know some DC's that use cheap labour to guide dives but here it is even worse. There are guests paying to have the honour to guide dives. This must be the cheapest labour ever. And yes, as a paying guest I would be very PO'd not having a professional guiding me as I'd expect.

I agree entirely maybe if they used qualified and experienced guides, the type of complaints that we have seen on here recently would not exist.
I myself have raised concerns over such activities in the past but have been criticised for doing so. Not surprisingly most of the criticism directed at me has come from DC's / dive professionals.
I am so glad it is not only myself that feels this way. Instead of criticising people for making complaints on here about poor service recieved, if some actually listened to their customers for once maybe we would all be much happier.

 

[lord khram]

Some divemasters lead in different ways, on different dive sites and with different customers. Some days I am a dive leader and try and lead customers like sheep to different dive sites so that they can tick off boxes in their head of what they have seen. Other times I merely dawdle along checking the group is ok and doing the navigation with customers actually leading having shown them the site map at their own pace and pointing out points of interest if we happen to pass them, I then decide when to turn back and navigate hopefully straight back to the ladder for the group. If you prefer a particular style then tell your dive leader.

That is upto the DM's discretion on the boat. The wind could of very easily picked up and waves created as the khram is in a fairly unprotected area, those divers inexperienced with using a ladder in open seas may fall, thus possibly breathing in water and causing possible near drowning injuries, which would require hospital treatment. The mask on rule is to stop divers becoming disorientated if they do fall back and not crowding the ladder is simple common sense. We don't expect you to do any more then the rules your dive master is following, if he is not then discretely have a word with him or the staff member in charge of the boat. Chris W or Phil B are normally the staff members in control on khram days

45 mins is a strange limit as following the table and the max depth of the khram being 31.6 metres according to my log your ndls would be a serious issue before that limit. It should be 70 bar back at the line therefore 50+ bar at the surface. If you have unbalanced regulators like our rental stock is then you find it harder to breathe at 35 bar at around 18m hence our safety limit of 50 back on the boat. If you suffer from DCS your dive computer will be collected and given to the appropriate authorities such as dan if you are more then .5 metres beyond your training at that time on any dive in your computers history then DAN are not obliged to pay up as you have exceeded your training limit. Assuming your AOW your max depth is 30m and therefore you should not be playing in the sand at the bottom of the wreck.

We log every diver, every day and the logs are stored so if any injury should occur and an accident report is required, then we can show what diving you have done with us, how much air you consumed at max depth and at what times you did your dives.

I agree with what you are saying here to a point, on the day an individual is responsible for leading a dive safely and he has to make his own decisions about the conduct of the dive.
But not everyone is PADI trained, other agencies have different standards, also some endorse decompresion dives, which in my mind reinforces the need for having proffessional qualified dive guides that can cater for all customers needs. Here I am not refering to technical dive situations, I am refering to single cylinder dives and extending dive times to use up your air within safe limits where you may go into a deco situation. Its simply about getting the most from your diving. More often than not all it means is that your 3 minute stop becomes compulsory, or may be extended to 5 or 6 minutes and you get happy customers. What is the problem with that?
How do DAN go on with those of us that quite often dont dive with a computer?

 

[h90]

Yes the 45 min seems to be wrong. I have this dive loged with 29min and I came back with an half full tank, so it was most probably 30 min.

I understand that Mermaid is an American company and therefor more worried about law suits. As well some things might be insurance issue. So I complete understand that Mermaid is recording every step.

Of course 50 bar limit on the surface and not crowding the ladder is common sense and should be enforced.

For the rest I would say, the diver are certified and they should know what they do. I see PADIs 30 meter as an recommendation. If DAN is not paying me because I was on 32 it is my problem. Of course I understand that there might be people who would sue the DC because they let them go below their certificates. But that kind of diving in which the DM takes over any possible decision is not interesting for me.

Some divemasters lead in different ways, on different dive sites and with different customers. Some days I am a dive leader and try and lead customers like sheep to different dive sites so that they can tick off boxes in their head of what they have seen. Other times I merely dawdle along checking the group is ok and doing the navigation with customers actually leading having shown them the site map at their own pace and pointing out points of interest if we happen to pass them, I then decide when to turn back and navigate hopefully straight back to the ladder for the group. If you prefer a particular style then tell your dive leader.

That is upto the DM's discretion on the boat. The wind could of very easily picked up and waves created as the khram is in a fairly unprotected area, those divers inexperienced with using a ladder in open seas may fall, thus possibly breathing in water and causing possible near drowning injuries, which would require hospital treatment. The mask on rule is to stop divers becoming disorientated if they do fall back and not crowding the ladder is simple common sense. We don't expect you to do any more then the rules your dive master is following, if he is not then discretely have a word with him or the staff member in charge of the boat. Chris W or Phil B are normally the staff members in control on khram days

45 mins is a strange limit as following the table and the max depth of the khram being 31.6 metres according to my log your ndls would be a serious issue before that limit. It should be 70 bar back at the line therefore 50+ bar at the surface. If you have unbalanced regulators like our rental stock is then you find it harder to breathe at 35 bar at around 18m hence our safety limit of 50 back on the boat. If you suffer from DCS your dive computer will be collected and given to the appropriate authorities such as dan if you are more then .5 metres beyond your training at that time on any dive in your computers history then DAN are not obliged to pay up as you have exceeded your training limit. Assuming your AOW your max depth is 30m and therefore you should not be playing in the sand at the bottom of the wreck.

We log every diver, every day and the logs are stored so if any injury should occur and an accident report is required, then we can show what diving you have done with us, how much air you consumed at max depth and at what times you did your dives.

 

[h90]

I agree with what you are saying here to a point, on the day an individual is responsible for leading a dive safely and he has to make his own decisions about the conduct of the dive.
But not everyone is PADI trained, other agencies have different standards, also some endorse decompresion dives, which in my mind reinforces the need for having proffessional qualified dive guides that can cater for all customers needs. Here I am not refering to technical dive situations, I am refering to single cylinder dives and extending dive times to use up your air within safe limits where you may go into a deco situation. Its simply about getting the most from your diving. More often than not all it means is that your 3 minute stop becomes compulsory, or may be extended to 5 or 6 minutes and you get happy customers. What is the problem with that?
How do DAN go on with those of us that quite often dont dive with a computer?

I think, there is one big problem for every DC and maybe specially in Pattaya, as it is not a main dive location. The customer come with their colored cards but don't know anything about diving. As well some may hang from their drinking the day before (one guy told me proudly that some time ago he vomit under water because his hang over got worse at deep).
So they need to control ever step if they don't want to have 1 accident every month.

 

[saltynay]

More often than not all it means is that your 3 minute stop becomes compulsory, or may be extended to 5 or 6 minutes and you get happy customers. What is the problem with that?
How do DAN go on with those of us that quite often dont dive with a computer?

On the khram an extra 5 minutes looking into the gloom is a bit tedious. I had to stay with a customer (PADI instructor qualified) who went into deco as he had put his computer in the most conservative setting on a previous dive and forgotten. I did a safety stop at 12 metres for 3 minutes as I believed it was necessary even though the computer was stating differently that the stop was required at 6 metre and 3metres we then followed the computers direction. In the scheme of things it took us 20 minutes to get up the line and back on the boat and we both still had 40-50 bar. 20 minutes staring into the gloom except for the occasional jellyfish drifting by.

Your buddies computer I would imagine would be analysed plus the rest of the information from the accident report.

But that kind of diving in which the DM takes over any possible decision is not interesting for me.

If you stated that to me as your dive leader then the first dive would add an extra 10 mins on limits provided the staff member on the boat was happy with that. I would also however be exceptionally annoying constantly asking your NDL's and air after 25 mins so that I could get an impression off your comp limits and your consumption. Second dive would be a lot more relaxed.

I will forward your comments to the shop but can't say whether they wiill actively put anything in place immediately.