Dive shops and training: the disconnect with reality

[AndyNZ]

I didn't know they had RPM or had clubs though? I know each industry is different, and I'm not saying the dive industry is worse than any other, just that it is.. different in some ways.

Agreed... yet the similarities are also overwhelming.... personally, I wouldn't walk in to any shop and expect a salesperson to have anything other than their own interests at heart.... whenever someone says something like "Yes, the blue is very popular", because I am a cynical old goat it gets translated into my head as "We've got boxes of blue out the back, please buy that so we can shift it". I don't see why we would perceive dive shops as being any better than any other shop!

I am aware of this but blatent attempts to rip me off as well as them actually lying about certain things is poor business practice, whatever the business and whatever the bills they need to pay.

Lying is never good business practice, particularly not lying to your customers.

I'm in an independent club. I try to help there as much as I can, as I think independent clubs are a much better place to get gear advice, training and just in general fair prices on dive trips. I don't really see the need for LDSs: though they are a nice to have.

Independent clubs are great, and the BSAC model works really well. But the "there's no need for a LDS" doesn't always translate.

For example, take air fills. Yes, a club could buy a compressor. Yes, a club could amortise the cost of the active carbon for the filter etc.... but here, for example, law requires anyone filling a scuba cylinder to have undergone an approved fillers course. Using a compressor without the ticket can lead to a fine of up to $50,000. It's sods law that a club here would be audited at exactly that moment when someone without the ticket was pushing the on button. The club, as a legal entity, would be responsible for who was using it's compressor and would have to foot the bill!

As soon as a dive club starts to buy assets, it becomes socially and legally more challenging to run.... to my mind, let the dive shops deal with that stuff and let the dive clubs get on with organising their trips etc. A non-shop club and a LDS can happily co-exist.

I think that means there is oversupply in the market then and that consumers should not be expected to prop up stores by buying highly overpriced gear in order to prop up a failing business. I have bills to pay too, something dive stores who have bitched at me don't seem to get. I have bills to pay so I need to get good prices on gear.

100% agree. We have around ten shops in Auckland, for a city of just 1 million people. By my guess, half of those could close and it whilst it would suck for those who lost their jobs, it would actually mean a stronger, healthier dive industry.

 

[redacted]

For some reason, dive shops just seem to be worse than all other classes of retail business including electronic stores and new and used car dealers. I suspect it is because of their typical business model which is built around low volume, high markups and not very knowledgeable customers.

 

[AndyNZ]

For some reason, dive shops just seem to be worse than all other classes of retail business including electronic stores and new and used car dealers. I suspect it is because of their typical business model which is built around low volume, high markups and not very knowledgeable customers.

The latter is particularly interesting.... are you actually saying that it is harder to educate yourself as a consumer for dive gear than it is, say electrical goods? Or is it that we have different expectations for dive shops, hence are more easily disappointed?

 

[Sas]

The latter is particularly interesting.... are you actually saying that it is harder to educate yourself as a consumer for dive gear than it is, say electrical goods? Or is it that we have different expectations for dive shops, hence are more easily disappointed?

I think it is a mixture of both. I find it much easier to research electrical goods personally, in comparison to dive gear. I can also go into a shop and play with the electrical good I am interested in, dozens of them in one shopping trip if I want, where as it is difficult to do this with dive gear. I try out as much dive gear as I can but there is no way I'm ever going to be able to do this exhaustively (but I do what I can).

Also it always amazes me how little business knowledge some dive shops have. There seems to be a culture where they expect to be owed a living from their customers and that you need to support local shops. This just doesn't match with the reality of most industries. I mean I go to any supermarket I walk past to buy food, I have no real loyalty, but with dive shops you're expected to have a loyalty to a particular store and I think this is in part due to the fact that many stores have their own clubs which organise diving and social events and training. There is no other shop I go to that has a club associated with it nor have I ever got training from a store, other than dive stores, though I imagine there must be similar situations in other hobbies. It is a huge conflict of interest.

 

[redacted]

The latter is particularly interesting.... are you actually saying that it is harder to educate yourself as a consumer for dive gear than it is, say electrical goods? Or is it that we have different expectations for dive shops, hence are more easily disappointed?

I was not saying that although it probably has some truth. When is the last time you saw any scuba gear presented in Consumer Reports?

What I'm saying is that many dive shops are operated to take advantage of their customers lack of scuba knowledge. And it then cultivates that lack of knowledge by including biased gear purchasing information as part of their certification instruction.

 

[gcbryan]

...
Sometimes it pays to think outside the box. Advanced technology is available. Those who thumb their noses at it are oftentimes doing themselves a disservice.

I can't say that I've ever heard "think outside the box" and retractors used in the same sentence nor have I heard "advanced technology" and retractors used together. Congrats!

 

[AndyNZ]

Also it always amazes me how little business knowledge some dive shops have. There seems to be a culture where they expect to be owed a living from their customers and that you need to support local shops. This just doesn't match with the reality of most industries.

True, but then look at it from the shops perspective.... I used to work in a dive shop, and regularly people would walk in to the shop and the first question out of their mouth was "Can I get discount on that?".... it used to cause all sorts of problems when I answered "Sure, which part of it don't you want?". People seem to expect discount from dive shops when they would expect it from another retailer! So that is where the "expectation" of loyalty comes from in many dive shops. It may not be you that walks in and asks for discount, but in my experience a good 40% of people do.

Few consumers realise how much a 10% deposit actually is - as a minimum, it would be 20% of the dive shop margin... It's really easy to forget that the wholesalers are as much involved in the chain as the shops - yet the shops always seem to be the ones that get the bad rap.

 

[Sas]

True, but then look at it from the shops perspective.... I used to work in a dive shop, and regularly people would walk in to the shop and the first question out of their mouth was "Can I get discount on that?".... it used to cause all sorts of problems when I answered "Sure, which part of it don't you want?". People seem to expect discount from dive shops when they would expect it from another retailer! So that is where the "expectation" of loyalty comes from in many dive shops. It may not be you that walks in and asks for discount, but in my experience a good 40% of people do.

Most people I know try to get discounts on any big ticket item from electrical goods to computer goods to dive gear. I don't see it as any different in the diving industry other than that the dive industry expects loyalty from customers in return. I don't see why asking for a better price makes me indebted to the store. They either accept and discount, if it is a good idea for them, or they don't if say, it is cutting their price down too much. That's just standard business practice, nothing particular to the dive industry. I do the same with service items such as ringing around for car service items. It is astonishing to me the difference I get in price between companies for the same work, and also interesting to see the different prices my boyfriend will get if he rings up on my behalf... Why would I not ask for a discount?

Also there is the fact that the diving industry encourages people asking for discounting by setting the price at the recommended retail price given by the manufacturer, which is a lot higher than one can get the same good for online. If local dive shops gave fair prices I wouldn't ask for discount. There are a few places where I have bought gear without asking for a discount as I know I'm getting a damn good deal from the start.

Few consumers realise how much a 10% deposit actually is - as a minimum, it would be 20% of the dive shop margin... It's really easy to forget that the wholesalers are as much involved in the chain as the shops - yet the shops always seem to be the ones that get the bad rap.

True, but they are both to blame really. There are good and bad wholesalers too, just like dive stores though.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Really bryan?

How can you tell that?

From where I sit, you can mount a retractor anywhere, it can be clipped to a D ring, it can be put on almost any BCD strap, and it can be added just about anywhere using a sort of "rivet" attachment available with some retractors or screwed in place using a backplate that comes with some retractors.

Once the retractor is in place, items can be clipped in various manners, retractors come in an entire array of various clips in just about every size and shape.

And once the item is clipped to the retractor, it can be locked in place so the retractor acts just like a D ring, but then you have the distinct advantage of being able to use the item without unclipping it if you so desire! So if you're using it and you want to free up your hand, just let go of the piece of gear and - like magic- it retracts right back against your BCD. Not only that but an item that might not necessarily reach inside your pocket if it's clipped to a D ring can be put inside the pocket while still attached to the retractor..such as a dive light! So it's out of sight and not hanging there and you're even more streamlined. If it should happen to fall out of your pocket, it's not going anywhere because it's..um...attached to a retractor.

Sometimes it pays to think outside the box. Advanced technology is available. Those who thumb their noses at it are oftentimes doing themselves a disservice.

... or maybe he's just trying to save somebody some money ... I went thru the retractor phase about nine years ago, and decided they were a waste of money.

Retractors are hardly what I'd consider advanced technology ... they can be a convenience for some folks, but they don't really do anything for you that you can't do a lot less expensively with a bolt snap and a lanyard.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[101recon]

OP:I'm a new diver and have not experienced a "disconnect" or "gaps" of any sort.In fact,so far my first year of diving has been nearly the opposite of what you describe.I have 3 LDS within 30 miles.Between them they represent NAUI,PADI,TDI,SDI,ERDI,and a few more I can't remember.I have never seen a "heated" debate or argument concerning training or gear between any of them.They have all been helpful,answered my many questions,and seem to all be just people who love to dive.

The only place I do see these tiresome "discussions" is a larger forum.It is easy to post anything you wish with little regard as to who may disagree or be offended.There are spammers,trolls, and those who just plain love to argue and stir up ****.I wouldn't even be surprised if a number of the "experts" here were not even divers.The Web is a great place for info and learning.But there is also a lot of trash too.I've noticed that there is little to none of this sort of thing on my local forum,or at the local dive sites.It seems that the good possibility of running into the other guy at the quarry this weekend has a tempering effect.Funny how that works.

It sounds like you are disappointed with your LDS instructors and/or training.Don't let it tarnish diving for you,or lead you to abandon your original goals.Once certified,you can proceed as you see fit.Research the available training and decide what is right for you.There are thousands of divers here and many agree while many others do not.This will never change.So take what you want and respectfully leave the rest.I think it is safe to say that no 2 divers are exactly the same and all will never totally agree.So dive for yourself and choose those you wish to dive with.If someone disagrees...So What?I don't dive for any body else.If we don't agree we simply won't dive together.

Notes:
I love my console on a retractor.
Bought a Princeton Tec Torrent for my first light and like it so far.I like it on a snap bolt.
Snorkel stays in the gear bag unless I'm snorkeling.