A Concerned Diver.

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If you are not comfortable with those guys then don't dive with them-simple as that.

As for the first guy going to 70 feet on his first dive as a new certified diver-so what?

I know its regional but around here most dives are in the 70-90 foot range so what that means is that unless you are on a boat taking a class out, even if it is your first dive after certification, you will probably be diving to that depth. Should you be careful-sure. Should your open water training have prepared you for this-sure.

There are too many divers in this world to dive with people you don't like, find a new group.
 
I have no dives under my belt except my cert dives so take my comments as what you paid for them.

Seems to me like you have two choices. First, you can let the "hot shots" be themselves or you can find a different club or dive buddy.

Everyone has different limits and capabilities. Many, probably most, of us test our own limits until we make a mistake. Going deeper may not be a problem at all for your first diver and so far he's been successful. Success emboldens us, especially those of us who are already confident (or perhaps overconfident). I wouldn't do it, but I'm older and less likely to push my limits than I was at 20 years old. He's clearly capable of doing these dives if nothing goes wrong. He may be capable of doing them if something does go wrong. The only way of knowing is to do the dives and have something go wrong. Until then, it's all speculation either way.

Your second situation/person doesn't seem like a problem at all to me. Neither diver seems to have been "solo" and deliberately leaving anyone behind. You said vis was crap and that two divers continued while four remained. You said they surfaced only a few minutes later than the rest of you but were a distance away. I'd suggest they figured they were still "with buddy" and thought you'd regroup but then when you didn't they surfaced. Distance is understandable, especially if they took a minute to realize you weren't still all together and then took some time to look around for you.

You have the option of talking to these people, but taking only from what you've said, your attitude is just as problematic as theirs is. Your post implies some envy/jealousy, whether intentional or not, that skews your perception of their motivations for diving and their level of safety consciousness. You sound like you're upset because you can't change them to your way of thinking.

There's nothing inherently unsafe about following a dive computer over charts. We weren't even taught charts in my class except to explain "hey this is a chart, depth is here, time is here, you'll never use them everyone uses computers nowadays". My PADI class materials came with a little eDRP computer and absolutely no charts whatsoever. There is similarly nothing wrong with using an air2 over an octopus and a lot of divers apparently like them. As for long hose versus short hose, again, that's personal preference and it's very rare to change someone's opinion until they're directly in a situation to see the benefits of both side by side and do a comparison.

People tend to like their own gear, especially if they spent a lot of money for it and they're still relatively new to it and the activity. This is the same for all activities. It takes time and experience to learn what's good and bad about each piece of gear.

You're fighting the battle of inexperience on top of the hubris of youth (assuming they're all university age people) so if they're unwilling, or you're unwilling, to have discussions about pros and cons of different dive objectives, and safety options, find different people with whom to dive.

I can't say what's a safe number of divers under one flag, because I simply don't have the experience to know that. I can say, bringing it up as a group, before your dives, and making clear plans is the best way to fix that issue. You can always provide a second flag if you feel you need more. From what it sounds like, the dives have generally gone according to what I would see as safe, when you split up you all surfaced, even if at separate times and locations (which seems reasonable to me) and you've had at least some sort of discussions about safety and gear. It takes time to sort through people you want to continue doing an activity with and those you don't. You're doing that, but from my perspective as a very active person in other "life & death" sports who's new to diving, your concerns are out of proportion with the situations you've described.

I should have mentioned that this was not the first time he left us behind. This is probably the third time it has happened. The other two lead to finding each other after a few minutes of searching.

They were not "with buddy," they just swam off. We've never made formal buddies, just dive as a group, that's it. I've tried, but it fails.

"You sound like you're upset because you can't change them to your way of thinking."

You're right, maybe I am, but I feel diving over your experience level is stupid, and not practicing safe diving techniques is also just as stupid.



Diving with 8 people under one flag seems irresponsible, especially if people don't check their surroundings.
 
Why is it a stupid thing? I don't really think it is stupid. On the contrary, them worse the visibility, the better it is to have more than your buddy to help you in case you need it. Ok you don't have to be very close to the other couples, but in case you get lost together ith your buudy, isn't it better to have smn else to bring you back to the "straight line"?

As for the other safety reasons you are reffering to, if you don't feel safe with the guys you dive then just change them. Fortunately,there are thousands of divers allo ver the world,so you can surely find lots of people to enjoy our favourite sport

I feel like I am solo diving with a twist of buddy diving. Because none of us have "Set" buddies, you don't look out for the other divers as much, as it is difficult to watch over 7 other people.
 
I dive the basic reg, octo under the right arm setup right now. I was merely discussing different setups and he shot em down and was like air2 is streamlined, game over, bye.
If he's not interested, you can't make him be interested. He may be bad at conversation but that doesn't automatically make him a bad diver.
I have no issue with air2. Maybe his primary is really short, but it seems to be so short I'd have to hug him to breath from his primary.
It sounds to me like you're expecting a hose you can use without having to touch the other guy. If you're not caving or penetrating wrecks, you shouldn't need a long octo hose. It's not like you're expecting to swim single-file while breathing from his octo. If you're using his octo, the two of you should be physically connected at the time, or someone will end up running off with the other guy's air. I'd call this a feature, not a bug.
 
If he's not interested, you can't make him be interested. He may be bad at conversation but that doesn't automatically make him a bad diver.

It sounds to me like you're expecting a hose you can use without having to touch the other guy. If you're not caving or penetrating wrecks, you shouldn't need a long octo hose. It's not like you're expecting to swim single-file while breathing from his octo. If you're using his octo, the two of you should be physically connected at the time, or someone will end up running off with the other guy's air. I'd call this a feature, not a bug.

I was just asking him why he wanted air2, for his opinion on it, and he gave me, it's more streamlined, good convo, bye.

I understand you should be connected, but literally I'd have to breath 4" from his face to use his octo.
 
I can understand your issue with diving in a large group without a specific person to call your buddy. If eight people are diving together as a group without buddies, then ideally everyone would be keeping an eye out for everyone else. Otherwise if someone disappears... who's to know? I wouldn't dive that way unless I was prepared to dive solo, and it sounds like you're not comfortable with diving that way either. So like the rest have said, relax and find another group or ideally someone like yourself to dive with one on one.
 
I feel like I am solo diving with a twist of buddy diving. Because none of us have "Set" buddies, you don't look out for the other divers as much, as it is difficult to watch over 7 other people.

Well this changes things up. Talk to each other,have a conversation, and get into groups of two. Buddy up and then all of you dive together. My opinion,and that's all.
 
Where's "up north"? Chances are there are other groups in your area that you may feel more comfortable diving with. Not to mention other scubaboarders who would love to go on a dive with you.

Can't say. I think these people I am referencing are members here.
I can probably find others to dive with, busy area.

If they're members here, you might be pleasantly surprised and come to a better understanding with them.

Honestly, I don't see a problem - you aren't naming and shaming them (please don't..), and the issues you guys have with each other are very real, although it may be as simple as different diving philosophies. Regardless of agency, a cardinal rule of diving is that you can call the dive at any time (even before you hit the water), and another good rule of thumb is to not dive with divers that you feel are unsafe. If you don't plan to dive more with them, then there's really no big loss if they are mad at you for voicing your views, is there?

But, that's up to you. Don't let a few divers with differing philosophies block you from networking and finding other divers here on ScubaBoard.
 
Group diving may be ok in clear water, but in low visibility it is really the same as solo diving. If you are not diving solo, and prepared to take care of yourself in an emergency, then you need to have a buddy. Three people can form a buddy team, but if there are more than that, they should be in buddy pairs. You can't watch 8 people in low visibility! Buy your own dive flag and float, and ask one of your diver friends to buddy with you. If the dive club won't let you do that, then don't dive with them. As for divers who dive deeper than you think they should, each diver has to set his own limits, and discuss them with his buddy. If your buddy won't respect your limits, find a new buddy.
 
When you have eight people in the water together, chances are nobody's looking out for anybody.

A regular buddy that you can trust is worth more than any specific piece of gear.

I met my regular buddy blind on a wreck board a couple of years ago and we've got more than a 150 dives together. I just got a new doubles rig that I am dying to get wet this weekend, but there's no way that I'm getting in the water with new gear without my regular buddy. A reliable buddy is that important.

Look around. You'll find someone.
 
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