How many dives before solo diving, part II

I had less than 25 dives when I began soloing, and now I have:

  • 0-24

    Votes: 8 16.3%
  • 25-50

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • 50-99

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • 100-249

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • 250+

    Votes: 25 51.0%

  • Total voters
    49

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It is unfortunate when people who don't even know what it is they don't know presume knowledge and skills beyond their experience and training.

I can't begin to count the number of reckless things I've done in my life because I was sure that I had the skills and knowledge to do them -- when in hindsight the reality was quite different. And for the most part I, like most everyone else, walked away unscathed.

But the end result do not negate the foolishness of the initial choice.

So true ... at less than 50 dives I was taking risks I wouldn't take today, with more than 2600 dives. Of course, today I know what those risks are ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
It isn't so much the mistakes that'll bite you when you're solo as it is the need for help with no one around, whether that need flows from a mistake or not. Certainly there are circumstances where a buddy is more a liability than an asset. Instructors frequently dive that way.
But there are "no-mistake" circumstances where solo is a death sentence, and it is this additional risk that solo divers must accept, or they are deluding themselves in their assessment of their safety.
In general, no matter how competent a diver you may be (Wes Skiles is a recent case-in-point), any debilitating event - stroke, heart attack, injury, entrapment, seizure, etc. - while solo diving results in drowning and death, while the same event with a buddy may or may not kill you, because a buddy may be able to transport you to life-saving assistance before you die... when you can not do it alone. To think "it'll never happen to me" is not an acceptable or accurate assessment of this additional risk to solo diving. It's just a part of solo diving and those of us who do choose to dive solo from time to time must consciously accept that risk every time we do it, or we're living in fantasy land.
Rick
 
As I wrote in the other thread, I did my first dive solo in 1961 and have done thousands of them since then. I have no idea how many dives I've done because I didn't keep (or at least retain) a log book for the dives from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Since June 30, 2000, when I started logging every dive I've done about 2,300.

As I stated earlier, I do NOT recommend solo diving for anyone else. To do that I'd have to know what I consider the most important thing about your diving for solo... your reaction to unexpected emergencies. I've only had a few in my nearly 50 years of diving, but each time I've reacted logically (in denial?) and survived. Looking at my incident rate a few years back, I was 20X more likely to have an incident with a buddy (almost all were insta-buddies rather than my "regulars").
 
On the poll I posted yesterday, a majority of divers responded that they had less than 25 dives when they began solo diving. QUOTE]


that means absolutley nothing!

how many responded? and how many asumed you meant before they started solo diving.

interesting to note though that you end your survey with 250 dives plus. some of us have done a few more than that!
 
I was a very confident and relaxed diver since the first time I put scuba on. Regardless of that, I realise that I knew virtually nothing before reaching 100 dives. I am surprised by how many sub-100 divers here think they know enough about diving to debate with the level of confidence that they show here.

I guess there is a disparity between how they would express their opinions online, compared to how they would act when they are at a dive centre or on a dive boat.

I get 'lectured' a lot by novice divers (>250dives) here on the forum, but remarkably that has never happened in person. I see other experienced divers and instructors, who can claim dives in the 000's also get 'told stuff' by newbies here. It makes me smile.
 
There's so much you don't take into account. All of this stuff you talk about, you talk about in absolute terms, but it's not nearly as absolute as you seem to think it is.

Trust me Doug...

...with a multitude more diving experience than you, having been a professional diveguide across Europe and Asia leading thousands of divers, a full-time instructor (with 6x more students certified that you have even done dives), managed 2 dive centers, and completed solo dives to 260'....

...I have taken more into account when formulating my reply that you are ever likely to know about scuba diving.

Also, who are you to determine what level of risk a particular individual should find acceptable?

At what point did you fantasize that I said that?

I did illustrate how I conduct risk assessment and differentiate the 'failure strings' inherent with different diving activities. That's a useful tool for a diver to have. Helping divers understand how to calculate risk enables them to make an accurate personal choice on what risk they wish to subject themself to.

You do perform some type of risk assessment before a dive don't you??!!

What I did not state or determine was how any individual should apply that risk assessment to themselves. People can do what they want...as long as they are not diving with me.

I do however, reserve every right to express an educated opinion on their diving practices.

You can beat your chest about civil liberties and freedom of choice all that you want. That's a typical bravado response by someone without enough experience to have learnt the 'tough lessons' about scuba diving and someone who has never taken moral or legal responsibility for the safety of other divers. To me it just sounds like a spoiled teenager, stamping their feet and sulking because they are told they can't do whatever they want.

I feel pity for people who die, or get injured, because they didn't appreciate the risks. I spend my time here on the forum trying to help people understand and alleviate those risks. I abhore bravado and arrogance in that respect. Those deaths are completely avoidable and it makes me sick.

When divers die understanding the risks (like many cave and tech divers do), its a much less abhorent event. They died doing what they loved, with full knowledge and acceptance of the risks. Tragic, but understandable.

So please... do a few more hundred dives....have a few 'near misses'.... learn about the dangers and risks..... AND THEN feel free to lecture divers about the risks they are 'entitled' to take..
 
diver_doug:
Just wanting to know if those who voted are predominately a bunch of newbs that are just a couple of dives away from an untimely death, or if it's a number of experienced divers who, miraculously, have yet to be prematurely killed

My first solo dive was dive 20. Looking back, I was far from ready. I should have passed on the experience. At the time, I didn't realize t was solo because there were about 11 of us "in a group." With no assigned buddy, I would today consider that a solo dive. After we actually got in the water even I realized we were all diving solo. We were diving in black water, I had absolutely no contact with any one during the dive. I now have over 500 solo dives (over 2000 total dives), but have only soloed a handful of times in the last 3 years.

sylpha:
how many asumed you meant before they started solo diving.

Since that's what he said, I don't think it can be considered an assumption.
 
Trust me Doug...

...with a multitude more diving experience than you, having been a professional diveguide across Europe and Asia leading thousands of divers, a full-time instructor (with 6x more students certified that you have even done dives), managed 2 dive centers, and completed solo dives to 260'....

...I have taken more into account when formulating my reply that you are ever likely to know about scuba diving.



At what point did you fantasize that I said that?

I did illustrate how I conduct risk assessment and differentiate the 'failure strings' inherent with different diving activities. That's a useful tool for a diver to have. Helping divers understand how to calculate risk enables them to make an accurate personal choice on what risk they wish to subject themself to.

You do perform some type of risk assessment before a dive don't you??!!

What I did not state or determine was how any individual should apply that risk assessment to themselves. People can do what they want...as long as they are not diving with me.

I do however, reserve every right to express an educated opinion on their diving practices.

You can beat your chest about civil liberties and freedom of choice all that you want. That's a typical bravado response by someone without enough experience to have learnt the 'tough lessons' about scuba diving and someone who has never taken moral or legal responsibility for the safety of other divers. To me it just sounds like a spoiled teenager, stamping their feet and sulking because they are told they can't do whatever they want.

I feel pity for people who die, or get injured, because they didn't appreciate the risks. I spend my time here on the forum trying to help people understand and alleviate those risks. I abhore bravado and arrogance in that respect. Those deaths are completely avoidable and it makes me sick.

When divers die understanding the risks (like many cave and tech divers do), its a much less abhorent event. They died doing what they loved, with full knowledge and acceptance of the risks. Tragic, but understandable.

So please... do a few more hundred dives....have a few 'near misses'.... learn about the dangers and risks..... AND THEN feel free to lecture divers about the risks they are 'entitled' to take..

blah, blah, blah...
 
There's so much you don't take into account. All of this stuff you talk about, you talk about in absolute terms, but it's not nearly as absolute as you seem to think it is.
The only truly correct answer to most scuba-related questions is "it depends" ... that said, some broad statements are generally more true than others. With new divers, the lack of context due to experience is what will increase their risks of a bad outcome.

How much risk is acceptable is a matter of personal choice ... but it helps to be able to make an informed decision. Inexperienced divers who solo dive don't have sufficient knowledge to make informed decisions ... they're just "gambling" that it'll turn out alright.

What if a person is worse off with a buddy because that buddy is incompetent and thus puts the competent diver into situations he otherwise wouldn't have ended up in?
Then you did a poor job of choosing a dive buddy. Lack of buddy skills isn't a good reason to go solo. Choose better dive buddies instead.

What if having a buddy makes a particular diver more complacent, or more willing to enter into a risky situation, or wanting to "impress" their buddy by doing something foolish?
That's a sign that the diver isn't very responsible ... in which case, solo diving's probably not a good idea either. A person who is willing to take risks to impress someone else is probably the last person who should consider solo ... because they're not going to be any less willing to take those risks whether or not they have a dive buddy. It's a personality thing.

What if by solo-diving a particular diver becomes more adept/proficient thus increasing the likelihood he can assist a buddy should an emergency arise while buddy diving?
Solo diving doesn't improve your buddy skills ... nor does it increase your situational awareness. Solo diving doesn't teach you self-reliance. Those are things you need to learn BEFORE becoming a solo diver ... not the other way around.

What if a new diver is such a "natural" at diving that solo diving, for them, is no more risky than two new "lousy" divers buddy diving?
Most folks want to believe they're a better diver than they actually are ... it's a natural human response. Many dive businesses count on this, and will sell you your next course by convincing you that you're a "natural".

If you really want to find out how "natural" you are, sign up for a class with an instructor who isn't going to feed you that BS, and insist that he challenge you. Even better if the session is videotaped, so you can see for yourself just how "natural" you look underwater.

Having experienced a few of those, I can tell you it's a real eye-opener.

Is mastersniper, for example, such a diver? I don't know, I've never dove with him...but I think it is a mistake to say that, across the board, no-one, as a novice diver, is sufficiently competent to safely and intelligently solo dive.
Even someone with a great deal of "natural" ability ... and I've known a few of those ... will still lack the context to know how to make good decisions underwater.

Confidence and ability will only get you so far ... it's knowing when to say "that's not a good idea" that someone can consider themselves sufficiently competent to safely and intelligently solo dive.

Also, who are you to determine what level of risk a particular individual should find acceptable?
That's not what he's doing ... he's trying to explain why the new diver doesn't have the tools to determine what level of risk they're taking ... and until you can do that, you have no way of knowing whether it's acceptable or not.

There are people who will say the risk of diving, period, isn't worth the risk. Have a buddy/don't have a buddy, calm water/choppy water...a number of people will say it doesn't matter-too risky an endeavor, period. But obviously for people like us (and millions of others) the risk is worth the reward. Likewise, the risk of solo diving can be worth the reward to a particular new diver, even if you don't think so.
Fine ... and there's a reason why the only agency that teaches people to solo dive requires a minimum of 100 dives before doing so ... maybe, just maybe, they understand a reality that you haven't figured out yet.

Solo diving for a new diver is risky, but a cave diver is probably more at risk for death than a new diver is when that new diver is diving in a calm OW environment. Cave diving has the highest fatality rate of all the certifiable diving disciplines, yet divers regularly embark into this realm.
Ah ... now you're onto something. Look at the primary reason why cave divers die ... in almost all cases it's because they exceeded their training ... or broke one of the five basic rules that every cave diver learns in their introductory class.

Their death is very much analogous to the new diver who was trained to dive with a dive buddy going off on their own to explore new horizons ... without a damn clue how to prepare for it, or what to do if something goes wrong.

If "statistics", or "likelihood of catastrophe" is the issue here, then you should regard all cave divers as stupid for deciding to cave dive (even with proper training) because that training still doesn't do away with the high likelihood of death. The beauty and solitude caves offer is, to some, so appealing that they will venture into them despite the amount of risk involved.
And there is a beautiful example of the kind of ignorance and assumption that will get the new diver in trouble ... you assumed something in that statement that isn't true. The cave diver who follows his or her training will almost never become a statistic ... because they planned, prepared, and executed their dive as they were trained to do. It's the ones who take shortcuts who get themselves killed. Go look at the several threads on ScubaBoard about the diver who recently disappeared in Vortex. He's a perfect example of the analogy you're trying to make.

So too is it the case that some new divers will venture into the water alone because the draw is so powerful. My point here is that there is no inherent benchmark for "acceptable risk"...it's something people have to figure out for themselves. Like I said in a previous post: all one can do is provide a particular individual with information and allow that individual to make the decision for themselves...even if it's not one you agree with.
And all of that represents a logical fallacy ... one cannot determine "acceptable risk" without some understanding of what the risks might be.

By all means I am in favor of people making their own decisions. I would prefer if they made those decisions based on knowledge, rather than on wishful thinking ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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