GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Nowhere in this thread have *I* said anything about saving divers from themselves.

You are accusing me of positions that other people have, that I don't share.

I don't care who dives Wakulla. I'm just tired of this particular argument. Contrary to your assumptions, I would love to see someone on one of these threads finally do the work to get their own permit to dive Wakulla so that the argument would go away.

Since you are unwilling to do the work to get to the level necessary to dive Wakulla and you're unwilling to devote any effort to the permitting process, your contribution is worthless, and I'm pointing that out.

I'm not George. I'm not even Dan Volker. I don't share their opinions. I just want to know if there's a point to this thread and if anyone is going to finally step up and do the work? Otherwise you're just having a fine argument with yourself about how we're all evil George-clones, and that's fairly boring to me.

Please stop, you're hurting my feelings

 

[lamont]

What is your urge to close it about? There are remarkably mild words here. Heavy moderation or editing seems to be unnecessary. Jarrod and Casey have SB accounts. This is a good opportunity for them to clear a little air.

I'm not urging to close the thread (and if you're worried about me being able to do it, I can't.... wrong forum...)

I'm looking for a point to this thread different than all the others (dunno why I'm beating my head against this one, but I'm in SF for the day with nothing better to do and no diving right now...). If there's no point, then what are we talking about?

And I don't know why JJ and/or Casey would need to show up here and clear the air.

Like the other posters said, its really about asking Wakulla State Park questions. JJ/Casey/WKPP did the work for their own purposes, they are not really answerable to the rest of the community and there's no rationale for other divers to demand access to the fruits of their work. Other divers need to do their own work.

 

[ucfdiver]

And I don't know why JJ and/or Casey would need to show up here and clear the air.

Casey already answered these questions 5 years ago...
The Deco Stop

Yet it remains part of the basis for the proposal petitions which I believe is misleading. John S can clearly see this and perhaps others. To petition the State for recreational access is one thing but basing your petition on claims that others currently have exclusive recreational access is misleading to both the State and to those signing the petition. I suggest pursuing the proposal with the State but leaving the WKPP out of it.

John
No intention to avoid the question but I do not feel the WKPP is in a position to vote one way or another - hence the neutral stance. The WKPP is not recreational in nature so how can we comment on acceptable standards for recreational diving or guide systems. If we support it and there's a problem we catch some flack from the State. If we don't support it we become labeled as elitist and exclusionary. This is a training agency proposal for recreational access. The WKPP does not have recreational access and instead holds a permit. The requirements are different and for what its worth, the permit requires a great deal of administration. There is nothing keeping qualified groups from applying for a permit but again, the State ultimately approves or denies similar to this recreational proposal.

The WKPP maintains strict access controls meaning I know who on the team is diving at all times. Quite honestly, unless there is a team outing we do not have people in the water. WKPP members cannot access these sites on their own and there is a scheduling process involved with the park. I see much looser controls with this recreational proposal so will that work? Who's to say.

As for my personal opinion, sure there are cave divers outside the WKPP capable of diving Cheryl and Emerald on a recreational basis. Should they train people at these sites - I don't believe that's a good idea for conservation and safety reasons. Should they use DPV's in these systems - I don't believe that's a good idea for conservation reasons and probably why the restricted their use at Peacock Springs. Do I believe recreational access will become a reality - yes, eventually. Do I believe it's a priority for the state - see previous posts. Do I believe cave divers are standing in line with campers, moutain bikers, horseback riders, hikers and the general non-diving public - yes. Can I comment on the status of the proposal - no, only the State can.

Lastly, I would like to make you and others aware that research proposals are in the works to instrument the Leon Sinks system in much the same way as the Wakulla Cave System. Meaning there are plans for meters, wells and further research now that dye traces have confirmed a physical connection to Wakulla Springs. To understand the impact on Wakulla the researchers look at the entire basin and the features feeding water to Wakulla Springs. Do I believe recreational access might in someway interfere with this work - maybe.

John, it appears your are relatively local as well. If you can work it into your schedule you are welcome to attend this weekend's outing at Wakulla Springs and talk with the researchers and key team members. We have 3 meters to replace, bacteria samples and slides to gather and a request from the State Archeology Dept. for detailed photos of the bone debris field inside the entrance restriction. there will be lots of activity.

Regards,
Casey McKinlay
Project Director
Woodville Karst Plain Project

 

[karstdvr]

This whole arrogance thing is a mis-read, due to your being absent from the nineties as an active cave or tech diver. On a dive boat, George was never anything like the internet personna, and never arrogant. I was a little worse in the nineties than I am now, so if I annoy you now, you'd have really hated me then But arrogance was not in the mix...it was seeing many tech dive instructors and agencies as predators, and our belief that they would be klilling people with dangerous ideas, if we did not get through to the dive masses. There were only so many ways to accomplish this, and politeness would never have worked. Much like TV today..there are some things that the media goes crazy over, and it rarely will involve polite behavior.

Dan,I have to admit I have enjoyed reading your posts,and remembering the 90s. There was a change,at least within the cave diving community occuring during the 90s with the advent and acceptance of Hogarthian configuration/attitude. So without George's rants the change was occuring,and this acceptance was growing more profound. Instructors who taught butt mount/stuffing gradually changed because their students came educated in advance about Hogarthian configurations,and wanted to dive this way-either teach it,or lose a student. George's tirades remind me of a psychology study where you had two groups of people exposed to dental hygiene. One group saw pictures of normal brushing/flossing,the other group was shown pictures of rotting teeth,bleeding gums,and other stomach wretching images. Later the both groups were studies for their dental hygiene behavior,and the group shown less offensive images were more hygienic. I think George made some successful changes,but for the most part he drove people in the opposite direction-if this is doing it right,I don't want to do it at all. So has the negative attitude toward DIR today been fall out from George's arrogance? Don't know,but there is an obvious void between the DIR vs non-DIR.

 

[Dive-aholic]

A big problem with other groups, is the potential for liability BECAUSE they do not dive with the ENORMOUS set of ABSOLUTELY ENFORCED Safety Protocols. Earlier I posted on the Stone project, because it was a group with supposedly strong safety protocols and well trained divers....because they, like a great many cave diving groups today do not use the STRICT SAFETY PROTOCOLS of the WKPP, a skilled diver died..and he died because of failure to follow protocols...

If you allow any cave group access to Wakulla, exactly what way do you have to make sure they follow strict protocols?
The state is EXTREMELY sensitive to deaths in the park, and the potential for enormous liability. If the park became open to all, and a death ensued, can't you just hear the attorney for the dead diver's family going through the long list of deaths in lesser caves, building the case for the terrible potential for death in this cave, and how could the state have been so negligent, as to MAKE THE PUBLIC BELIEVE IT WAS ABSOLUTELY SAFE to dive here!!!!
Remember, this is a world where you can be sued for serving hot coffee to somene who was unaware that if it spilled on them, it could burn them!!!

I would also imagine, that the state also has much bigger pockets than do most private landowners--so the appeal of a huge lawsuit for "negligence by the state", would make many attorneys get goosebumps and experience heart palpitations

I don't buy this argument. The state allows cave diving in several other parks - Peacock, Madison, Manatee, Lafayette, Blue (Orange City), even Wakulla (Emerald). I'm sure I've missed some.

 

[vshearer]

The whole issue is moot. New openings are being made at a record rate.

More Florida sinkholes, no insurance coverage | McClatchy

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I submit the TV show "Jackass"" and the existence of 2 generations of self indulgent morons that actually look for things to do that would typically kill a person-- and they do it for bragging rights and you-tube clips. These are not athletes or individuals dedicated to exploration and the pursuit of adventure, mitigated by extreme training.....these are non-athletes with a dis-regard for training and knowledge, out to prove they can do whatever they want to.

Please describe to me a recent situation or person(s) that you would liken to the "Jackass" franchise in the cave diving community. Your analogy sucks.

I am suggesting there are still people that could very well take advantage of a wide open WAKULLA and the past history and danger, And it would actually increase their desire to attempt a huge penetration they have no business considering. This could easily be worse today than it was 20 years ago, due to the age of YouTube fame and reduced valuations of knowledge, training, and earned access.

Based on what? There are other deep caves out there. YouTube exists outside of Wakulla County, yet its not responsible for anyone out there kacking themselves elsewhere. Based on the '90s???

I'd also suggest that the basin at WAKULLA is not the "end-all" dream dive site worth moving heaven and earth for....public access to this for recreational diving would be a silly thing to push so hard for, when there are so many better places for recreational diver's to have wonderful diving experiences. You know, your not allowed to dive recreationally in the sewage lines either....is that a reason to lobby for your access?

I actually have waivers to dive the basin at Wakulla from the park The basin is not what I'd want to fight for.

Let's add an analogy for "earned access" .... Let's say you suffered a bad bike crash, and have major swelling in your brain...you need a brain surgeon to relieve the pressure, etc.....
Do you look for a really good brain surgeon with a great track record of success, OR...do you let your buddy Billybob do the drilling into your head, cause he tells you he read all about the surgery, and that he thinks he could do this just fine, and for free.....one has a track record and has earned access to your brain...has the other ?

Another off the wall, completely unrelated analogy with no basis of fact.

Earned access needs to be applied to certain cave systems where enormous temptations will exist for some people to make very stupid decisions....the cost of these bad decisions would be borne by the public at large, after the fact.

Based on what? 20 years ago? The community has learned alot since then, not excluding the WKPP.

Nothing of what you're describing is rearing is ugly head elsewhere, but I'm sure thats what the WKPP would like for landowners and park managers to believe.

The problem is the land owners, most who received their land because it's been in their family for decades, only remember the deaths that occurred back in the 70s. They only remember that when someone goes in that hole, they don't come out. And to their limited knowledge, they now think that body is forever entombed under their land. This is what's is so difficult to get past. Sure there are some that can and have been educated. The WCDC has done a lot to open up sites in Wakulla. However, there are still lots of sites that remain off limits because it's so difficult to educate people that things have changed. We've been trying to change attitudes and beliefs in Jackson County for years. While the county is finally on board and actually supporting cave diving, none of the local land owners are. As we get closer, something then happens and we get slapped back. And this has nothing to do with the WKPP or GUE. It just has to do with what they remember happening back in the 70s.

I know that. We need to educate the public and the parks that things are different, this would be less difficult without self proclaimed judges saying that nobody else can dive these sites without killing ourselves.

otherwise, most cave diver's would be GUE trained cave diver's...

That would close off more caves to me than being part of the WKPP would open to me

NIAGRA FALLS STATE PARK has very specific limitations to where the general public can have access. Even though a park may have a form of immunity, they obviously try to prevent people from accessing areas deemed unsafe by the park.

Another bad analogy.

We have training available and gear readily available to make dives like Wakulla.

Last I checked, nobody has come up with an acceptable training protocol or preapproved barrel for shooting off the falls.

 

[DiverLaura]

i think someone asked what relevance the data collected may have....

http://www.floridasprings.org/downloads/florida_113_qg5bjxw6.pdf

(i believe kincaid's name is mentioned in there)

Heart of the Earth - Wakulla Bottling Plant Update

http://aquaticcommons.org/809/1/tracing.pdf

and if you are looking for more 'recent' publications, there seem to be a few here...

Specialized Geological Modeling - Publications

i'll hazard a guess that some of the data for publications came from flow meter's placed and sampling done by the wkpp team...

 

[Crush]

I am sorry for being so green - these are tangential questions, but the responses will help me to make sense of this.

1. I have read (in this thread) about the horrible 90's and the fatalities. Did cave diving certifications exist in the 1990s?

2. In the 90's were there really that many poorly trained, but certified cave divers, or could the fatalities largely be attributed to un-certified cave divers? If the former, then there seem to have been problems with certification criteria. If the latter, then certification criteria may have been reasonable but people chose to dive beyond their limits.

3. Where were the WKPP/DIR divers originally certified in cave diving? The WKPP/DIR divers may have perfected what they were taught, but were their contributions revolutionary and innovative, or small refinements upon criteria that were established by those who came before them (their instructors, mentors, and peers)?

 

[TSandM]

The contributions were incremental, and largely were composed of an effort to collect best practices and standardize them, and then enforce rules on the entire project team, which is done to this day.

I have to admit that it doesn't make a lot of sense to me why Jackson Blue, Manatee, and Peacock are open to recreational diving, and Wakulla isn't -- except that there were a number of deaths at Wakulla that resulted in it being closed altogether, which I am not aware of having happened at the other sites. The WKPP didn't close Wakulla or demand that it be closed; they got it opened to them for permit diving. Whether or not they object to others diving the system, I don't know. They aren't there all the time, and from what I understand, conditions in the cave preclude diving for long periods of time, anyway.