Jacket BC or Wing BC

[DevonDiver]

In lieu of 'scientific data', I believe there is a vast amount of anecdotal evidence and direct personal experience from divers who have used both jacket and BP&W configurations.

Direct personal experience, especially when derived from a significant sample size, is an acknowledged basis for acceptance of a fact, where more rigorous scientific proof is not available. In legal terms, this is called 'witness testimony'. In medical terms, it might be called a 'case report' and subjected to peer review. In scientific terms, it may be considered the 'least' reliable proof - but remains proof nonetheless, until disproved. The responsibility for disproving such evidence falls onto those who seek to promote a counter-argument.

Claims that BP&W is more streamlined (with associated benefits for the diver) have been made via Direct Personal Experience from a substantial 'sample' of divers - many of whom may be considered 'expert witnesses' (substantial experience and training in both configurations of kit) and who have no personal, financial or other bias to represent a motivation towards providing misleading evidence.

Those who seek to counter that non-scientific, but acceptable, evidence are free to disprove it via a more reliable method; such as the production of a larger sample size of direct personal evidence (i.e. more divers with more comparative experience vouch that jacket BCDs are more streamlined) OR the admission of higher precedent evidence, in the form of scientifically tested results.

Until that time, please cease and desist from a counter-argument that has no evidential basis to disprove an acceptable claim.

 

[BDSC]

Those who seek to counter that non-scientific, but acceptable, evidence are free to disprove it via a more reliable method; such as the production of a larger sample size of direct personal evidence (i.e. more divers with more comparative experience vouch that jacket BCDs are more streamlined) OR the admission of higher precedent evidence, in the form of scientifically tested results.

This is certainly non-scientific but my observation has been this over the years. I'm not sure how many dive trips I have been on over the last 21 years of my diving career but it's been a lot. Most of those trips have been down around the Caribbean, Florida, and a couple in the Pacific. So I have run across numerous DM's and Instructors in that time. Lots! In all those trips, I have never seen a single DM or Instructor wearing a BP/W. Not once. And I have made it a point to look since joining SB because of all the wild claims made on these threads. If the BP/W was so superior in it's streamlining over a jacket BCD, why haven't these professionals caught on? I mean these guys/gals dive pretty much 6 days a week and several times a day. If you are diving for a living, wouldn't that person want to be in a BC that gives them optimal performance under the water? I just don't understand why all these professionals haven't seen the light. Maybe it's just that they have such a high level of diving skills that it doesn't matter what BCD they are using.

Which has made me wonder the following. If a person wearing a jacket BCD has perfected their trim and buoyancy, are they the more skilled diver than the person wearing a BP/W since it is suppose to be easier to achieve perfection in a BP/W?

It still seems to me that the superiority of the BP/W is more of a ScubaBoard phenomenon than anything else as I have never seen or heard this type of discussion outside of here.

 

[danvolker]

This is certainly non-scientific but my observation has been this over the years. I'm not sure how many dive trips I have been on over the last 21 years of my diving career but it's been a lot. Most of those trips have been down around the Caribbean, Florida, and a couple in the Pacific. So I have run across numerous DM's and Instructors in that time. Lots! In all those trips, I have never seen a single DM or Instructor wearing a BP/W. Not once. And I have made it a point to look since joining SB because of all the wild claims made on these threads. If the BP/W was so superior in it's streamlining over a jacket BCD, why haven't these professionals caught on? I mean these guys/gals dive pretty much 6 days a week and several times a day. If you are diving for a living, wouldn't that person want to be in a BC that gives them optimal performance under the water? I just don't understand why all these professionals haven't seen the light. Maybe it's just that they have such a high level of diving skills that it doesn't matter what BCD they are using.

Which has made me wonder the following. If a person wearing a jacket BCD has perfected their trim and buoyancy, are they the more skilled diver than the person wearing a BP/W since it is suppose to be easier to achieve perfection in a BP/W?

It still seems to me that the superiority of the BP/W is more of a ScubaBoard phenomenon than anything else as I have never seen or heard this type of discussion outside of here.

Actually, if you were diving Palm Beach, arguably a destination with green slopes. intermediates, double diamonds, and off the chart experts only stuff.....this is a place where you WILL see quite a few DM's and crew on charter boats, using Halcyon BP/wings..typically the 30# wing. It is also a place where the dive guides are frequently seen wearing freedive fins. This is a place where challenges "can" be intense, and the diving population of regulars reflects this. Even the macro photographers here have taken the cue, as some of the best environments for nudibranchs also are environments with tidal currents where a streamlined macro diver can get around, and a macro photographer geared up like a puffer fish, just gets blown around helplessly.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This is certainly non-scientific but my observation has been this over the years. I'm not sure how many dive trips I have been on over the last 21 years of my diving career but it's been a lot. Most of those trips have been down around the Caribbean, Florida, and a couple in the Pacific. So I have run across numerous DM's and Instructors in that time. Lots! In all those trips, I have never seen a single DM or Instructor wearing a BP/W. Not once. And I have made it a point to look since joining SB because of all the wild claims made on these threads. If the BP/W was so superior in it's streamlining over a jacket BCD, why haven't these professionals caught on? I mean these guys/gals dive pretty much 6 days a week and several times a day. If you are diving for a living, wouldn't that person want to be in a BC that gives them optimal performance under the water? I just don't understand why all these professionals haven't seen the light. Maybe it's just that they have such a high level of diving skills that it doesn't matter what BCD they are using.

Which has made me wonder the following. If a person wearing a jacket BCD has perfected their trim and buoyancy, are they the more skilled diver than the person wearing a BP/W since it is suppose to be easier to achieve perfection in a BP/W?

It still seems to me that the superiority of the BP/W is more of a ScubaBoard phenomenon than anything else as I have never seen or heard this type of discussion outside of here.

Skill has little to do with choice of appropriate diving equipment ... a skilled diver can hold buoyancy and trim using a couple of plastic jugs tied to his or her chest if they chose to. The two most significant factors affecting your observation are where you dive, and the availability of equipment in those areas. Jacket-style BCDs are more appropriate for warm-water diving than for cold ... due to the significant differences in the type of exposure equipment you're wearing. And, because of that, they are more readily available in those areas ... it's what the dive shops carry, rent, and sell ... therefore it's what the dive pros use.

In colder climes, dive pros tend to use BCDs that are more appropriate to their environment ... and even those who believe that BP/W's are "tech" gear will tend to select a back-inflate system like a Zeagle Ranger, ScubaPro Knighthawk or SeqQuest Black Diamond ... those are probably the three most popular non-BP/W rigs I see on dive pros in my area, and you'll rarely see any of them in the tropics except on people who dive locally in colder climes and are on vacation. By contrast to your observations, I rarely see a dive pro in my area in a jacket-style BCD.

These discussions all too frequently fall back on anecdotal evidence based on where a person dives, when what really matters is choosing the right equipment for the environment you're predominantly diving in. BP/W will work fine in the tropics ... but unless it's a lightweight rig with a smallish wing, it's probably not the optimal tool for the job. Most of us who travel with one either have a "travel wing", or we're using it because it's what we own and prefer to dive in. But let's not confuse the issue with claims of streamlining superiority. Sure, there are choices available that are bulkier than they need to be, but streamlining has more to do with how your rig fits, how well it's adjusted to your body, and how you stow your regs and accessories. Dangling consoles and octos and hoses that are too long and create unnecessary loops create more streamlining issues than choice of BCD type ... although you can get away with it until you have to kick against a current ... then you're going to watch your air consumption go up dramatically as you work harder than you should be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added ----------

Actually, if you were diving Palm Beach, arguably a destination with green slopes. intermediates, double diamonds, and off the chart experts only stuff.....this is a place where you WILL see quite a few DM's and crew on charter boats, using Halcyon BP/wings..typically the 30# wing. It is also a place where the dive guides are frequently seen wearing freedive fins. This is a place where challenges "can" be intense, and the diving population of regulars reflects this. Even the macro photographers here have taken the cue, as some of the best environments for nudibranchs also are environments with tidal currents where a streamlined macro diver can get around, and a macro photographer geared up like a puffer fish, just gets blown around helplessly.

Dan, I'm gonna disagree with your premise too ... having recently been in the Maldives, where currents are at least as intense as anything you've got in Florida. The dive guides there were also using freediving fins ... for the same reasons yours do ... but they were exclusively using jacket-style BCDs. What you didn't see on any of those guys, however, was a danglie ... everything was tucked in close to the body, and they moved through the water with ease and grace.

What you see in Florida has a great deal to do with what's available in Florida ... at least three BP/W manufacturers are based there, and the influence of technical diving in that area also creates a demand that has more to do with diving style choices than environment.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BDSC]

I have no doubt that it has a lot to do with where you dive as to what type of BC is typically found. I pretty much just dive the warm water stuff where all I need is a shortie or maybe just a rash guard.

While I doubt anyone would ever change my mind about moving to a BP/W (not that they are trying to), Dan's constant recommendation, and what Bob typed about those guys wearing freedive fins, has peaked my interest in perhaps trying a pair. Do I move over to the dark side? I need to check and see if anyone local sells them I guess. I have lots of friends with pools I could try them in.

Dan, any particular ones you would recommend? Anything a person needs to change about their kicking style when wearing them?

Thanks!

 

[danvolker]

Skill has little to do with choice of appropriate diving equipment ... a skilled diver can hold buoyancy and trim using a couple of plastic jugs tied to his or her chest if they chose to. The two most significant factors affecting your observation are where you dive, and the availability of equipment in those areas. Jacket-style BCDs are more appropriate for warm-water diving than for cold ... due to the significant differences in the type of exposure equipment you're wearing. And, because of that, they are more readily available in those areas ... it's what the dive shops carry, rent, and sell ... therefore it's what the dive pros use.

In colder climes, dive pros tend to use BCDs that are more appropriate to their environment ... and even those who believe that BP/W's are "tech" gear will tend to select a back-inflate system like a Zeagle Ranger, ScubaPro Knighthawk or SeqQuest Black Diamond ... those are probably the three most popular non-BP/W rigs I see on dive pros in my area, and you'll rarely see any of them in the tropics except on people who dive locally in colder climes and are on vacation. By contrast to your observations, I rarely see a dive pro in my area in a jacket-style BCD.

These discussions all too frequently fall back on anecdotal evidence based on where a person dives, when what really matters is choosing the right equipment for the environment you're predominantly diving in. BP/W will work fine in the tropics ... but unless it's a lightweight rig with a smallish wing, it's probably not the optimal tool for the job. Most of us who travel with one either have a "travel wing", or we're using it because it's what we own and prefer to dive in. But let's not confuse the issue with claims of streamlining superiority. Sure, there are choices available that are bulkier than they need to be, but streamlining has more to do with how your rig fits, how well it's adjusted to your body, and how you stow your regs and accessories. Dangling consoles and octos and hoses that are too long and create unnecessary loops create more streamlining issues than choice of BCD type ... although you can get away with it until you have to kick against a current ... then you're going to watch your air consumption go up dramatically as you work harder than you should be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added ----------



Dan, I'm gonna disagree with your premise too ... having recently been in the Maldives, where currents are at least as intense as anything you've got in Florida. The dive guides there were also using freediving fins ... for the same reasons yours do ... but they were exclusively using jacket-style BCDs. What you didn't see on any of those guys, however, was a danglie ... everything was tucked in close to the body, and they moved through the water with ease and grace.

What you see in Florida has a great deal to do with what's available in Florida ... at least three BP/W manufacturers are based there, and the influence of technical diving in that area also creates a demand that has more to do with diving style choices than environment.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Good point Bob,
And many of the DM's and dive guides were allowed to try the Bp/wing systems, and the results for Palm Beach conditions, pushed them into the bp/wings.
The lack of "danglies" is a definite issue for good divers in extreme conditions. The prevalence of them in the still water, Cruise Ship destinations, pretty much underscores this.

One of these days I need to do an article on the Everest's of Palm Beach....the "big challenge dives" our tourists don't get to see, and would not be prepared to handle. Palm Beach has it's own "wilderness dives"...dives charter crews, DM's, regulars for 20 years enjoy doing on special days when their favorite charter boat does a "crew day". When you see some of this stuff, the Halcyon Bp/wing and freedive fins start to make a lot more sense. I should probably include some of the wild penetration opportunities in some of our shipwrecks, where the diver would NOT be wearing freedive fins, and where exploration level control gains new meaning

 

[dmoore19]

An observation. It is pretty funny that I read these threads and scratch my head. I have never seen anyone diving with a BP/W. I have seen a couple of them though, at my LDS. Go figure!

 

[danvolker]

Dan, any particular ones you would recommend? Anything a person needs to change about their kicking style when wearing them?

Thanks!

This gets back to cars

• The Lamborghini Gallardo of the group is the DiveR composite blade freedive fins...if you are a cyclist, you go with the stiffest version ( which will not feel stiff to a cyclist--it will feel like a hand keeps shoving you forward I can also reverse kick with these, but not for 3 hours at a time, as I learned in fundies class thanks to Bob Sherwood.....
• The Mustang C4 is like a production corvette, not really meant for a race course, but still very fast...but fragile. You don't dare do a giant stride with them, or the blades will over flex and too much of this will crack them....not cheap either !
• The Cressi Gara Professional is more like a Ford Mustang that has been race hardened...it is tough, much faster than street cars for consumers, but no match for the world class performance of the DiveR's/Gallardo
• Cressi Gara 3000 HF is likely the next best in performance, and does require some fitness level to enjoy the power return of the high end freedive fins.
• Cressi Gara 3000 LD is the soft version, ideal for divers without extensive fitness training, or...for a freediver that plans to be freediving for 6 to 8 hours ( as in a spearfishing contest) , so they need a softer, less demanding blade. If gives return to each kick, but noodles if you kick too hard( if you are a cyclist).
• Riffe has a version similar to the gara 3000 LD which is equivalent to it, but Cressi is much easier to find throughout the world, which is why I list riffe after cressi.

The DiveR's cost around $550 or $600 .. like a Gallardo in so many ways
The cressi gara 3000 ld's can be had from amazon.com for as low as $80 or even less...the Pro model around $185


For all of these freedive fins, you learn their are several new kick shapes they do great with. Flutter is with huge amplitude slow frequency, often with some glide breaks in between. A cross between a dolphin kick and frog kick can deliver insane speed for quite a long way, and serves to work different muscles, if you are in a big current and getting "worked".

Frog kick is a big exageration of what we do with jets, with a much longer glide by far.

Reverse kick works on dive R's. due to the stiffness and angles of the fin.....but requires some practice and strong shin muscles for all the leverage

 

[BDSC]

Ok Thanks. Not sure I would spend close to $600 for fins even if they are the "Lamborghini Gallardo" of the group but I will certainly look into the Cressi Gara's you have mentioned. I did see that Mares has something like a free diving fin but it appears to be about 6" shorter that a true freediving fin but is much longer than a std fin. Don't know if they are any good or not. Here is a link: Mares Avanti Quattro Power Full Foot Long Blade Fins, Black

 

[-hh]

Skill has little to do with choice of appropriate diving equipment ... a skilled diver can hold buoyancy and trim using a couple of plastic jugs tied to his or her chest if they chose to. The two most significant factors affecting your observation are where you dive, and the availability of equipment in those areas...

Well said. As you go on to point out, the "BP/W Hot Spot" in Dan's geographical region is certainly being influenced by its local cave diving community and the location of the main BP/W manufacturers. One of these manufacturers is Halycon, which is the "DBA" used by Trebor Industries.

Sure, there are choices available that are bulkier than they need to be, but streamlining has more to do with how your rig fits, how well it's adjusted to your body, and how you stow your regs and accessories. Dangling consoles and octos and hoses that are too long and create unnecessary loops create more streamlining issues than choice of BCD type ... although you can get away with it until you have to kick against a current ... then you're going to watch your air consumption go up dramatically as you work harder than you should be.

Well said.

If I were to rank the variables in order of importance for getting through the water most efficiently (which is really the requirement, not merely "streamlining"), my list would be:

1. Diver's orientation or "trim" angle (drag - first order variable)
2. Number of tanks being carried (drag - first order variable)
3. Diver's kick efficiency (propulsion - first order);
4. Buoyancy Control (propulsion - first or second order, depending on severity);
5. Accessory Gear management ... eg, UW camera, lights, SMB (drag - second order)
6. Fin Selection (propulsion - second order variable)
7. Core Dive Gear management ... eg, hose danglies (drag - second order)
8. BC Selection (drag - second/third order variable)
9. Snorkel location (drag - third order variable)
10. Swimsuit/Thermal Protection (drag - third order variable)
11. Fin Strap danglies (drag - third order variable)

etc and YMMV. Naturally, it would be even better if we had objective data with which to help divers in their trade-off decisions to gage just how much more significant #1 is versus #8 and so forth. The good news is that for divers on tight budgets, #1 is simply practice and self-directed training, which is basically free. #3 is similar as well: the biggest contributors still come down to diver-developed skills, rather than the particular brand of plastic milk jugs which Bob has sneakily duct-taped to you


---- MERGED POSTS ----

...and what Bob typed about those guys wearing freedive fins, has peaked my interest in perhaps trying a pair. Do I move over to the dark side? ...

Regardless of what you decide, if you're going to travel with them, do make sure (before you buy) that they're not too long to fit in your luggage.


-hh