I've actually had a boat DM close my valve while checking it. I prefer DMs like the ones in California. They remain on deck as lifeguards, ready to jump in if needed. They give briefings and count divers, no more, no less.
Open letter to boat dive masters
- Thread starter Herb-alaska
- Start date
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Ana
.
yes, this happens. In my 20s when I was a smoker I would jump in the water with a cigarette in my mouth instead of a second stage. Later on after getting old when I started using glasses, I would jump in with them on instead of my mask.
Of course I have also jumped in with my air off ... but have we got to such state of diver uselessness that going in with the air off is an actual matter of life and death? this should not be anymore than an inconvenience... and at the most serve as fuel for others to make fun of you later.
But i must be wrong because charters (or juries) that believe the responsibility for safety relies on the actual diver are pretty much non existent.
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Please don't think that I don't have sympathy for Herb-Alaska's wishes. I fully understand both sides. When I am tech diving, no one touches my gear, for exactly the reasons he doesn't want anyone touching his recreational gear. If I can't gear up, stand up, and rig my own stages, then it's time to hang up my gear and go to the gym. You might be surprised at how many stages we hang off of divers when they are kitted up and ready to go. For a full boat of technical divers (12), we have a full crew of 12 onboard, including 4 (we call them Deckhands instead of Divemasters, but that's a Coast Guard thing) deckhands to help folks get in their kit. If someone tells us to leave them alone, we respect their wishes.
Same goes for recreational divers. We would never rig your gear, adjust your weights, or mess with your tank band unless you ask us to. HOWEVER. Checking your tank valve on is automatic. I did just check with my lead deckhand, however, and if you ask her not to touch your valve she won't. That is a request, however, not automatic.
With that said, it never ceases to amaze me how many jump in with their mask backwards on their head and sunglasses firmly in place, folks who jump in without weights or fins, or their air turned off. Or those who jump negative without a regulator in your mouth.
Herb-Alaska, if you ask us not to tough your valve, we won't. But we would like every opportunity to bring home your warm breathing body instead of the other kind. Bringing home the other kind is a real bummer.
Same goes for recreational divers. We would never rig your gear, adjust your weights, or mess with your tank band unless you ask us to. HOWEVER. Checking your tank valve on is automatic. I did just check with my lead deckhand, however, and if you ask her not to touch your valve she won't. That is a request, however, not automatic.
With that said, it never ceases to amaze me how many jump in with their mask backwards on their head and sunglasses firmly in place, folks who jump in without weights or fins, or their air turned off. Or those who jump negative without a regulator in your mouth.
Herb-Alaska, if you ask us not to tough your valve, we won't. But we would like every opportunity to bring home your warm breathing body instead of the other kind. Bringing home the other kind is a real bummer.
OP
Herb-alaska
Contributor
I actually have no issue with a person with more experience providing assistance or a last check . my issue was this DM had just finished telling me about a diver that he had on the boat last week that had this weird rig where his tanks were on his side ( side mount ) he had no clue what it was. this DM needed help launching the boat and this DM was supposed to be driving the boat.
I was one of two people on the boat the other was my buddy son in law I had paid for the entire boat of 6 to ensure the boat went out. It was a river drift dive with an average depth of 5 feet and a few deep holes of 20. I had just done two cavern dives the day before with the shop and had no issue with and tipped very well that DM My irritation was he refused to honor my request not to touch my gear. If touching my gear is required tell me before I pay. Had he earned my respect, by demonstration of his experience I would have had no issue. If I know you and I respect that you know what you are doing and you ask to do a check then I would have no issue but otherwise please respect that it is my life my gear and my responsibility
And those DM s that can't accept this no problem I will take my business elsewhere
I was one of two people on the boat the other was my buddy son in law I had paid for the entire boat of 6 to ensure the boat went out. It was a river drift dive with an average depth of 5 feet and a few deep holes of 20. I had just done two cavern dives the day before with the shop and had no issue with and tipped very well that DM My irritation was he refused to honor my request not to touch my gear. If touching my gear is required tell me before I pay. Had he earned my respect, by demonstration of his experience I would have had no issue. If I know you and I respect that you know what you are doing and you ask to do a check then I would have no issue but otherwise please respect that it is my life my gear and my responsibility
And those DM s that can't accept this no problem I will take my business elsewhere
I see more than one issue here...Is the DM checking whether the air is turned on or not.
1) For the "average recreational" dive boat (techies is a whole other set of circumstances - agreed no touchy), how many divers do a "proper bubby check"?It is even worse with Insta-Buddies where most divers are lucky to just each others names. For a DM to verify that air is on prior to entry should be a no-brainer for anyone. If a diver forgets to turn on their air...what else have they forgotten? I like it when the DM personally walks around the boat and does a scan of each diver, both before and after the dive. This lets me know they are developing their own situational awareness for that group of divers.
2) DMs who use tact and DMs who do not. I do not care for DMs who assume that I am incompetent kitting up and man-handle me accordingly. Communication is so simple, yet it seems it is all too often never used. If a DM asks to adjust my harness or tells me they are verifying my air prior to touching me, I have no problems with that...like others have said it is THEIR JOB. I do not like it when they just grab my straps and start to hank on them. I really DO KNOW how I like my own equipment. The regulator is my life-link and if anyone touches it, I will re-verify it myself.
3) I truly understand that there are so many villages that have lost their idiots and at times it seems like they all want to go diving at the same time. But running a dive operation is still a service industry and if the DM expects a tip, they should treat the divers as customers and not internees...I have seen both. If a DM provides decent customer service, I tip them well; if they go out of their way to REALLY provide customer service, I tip them extremely well (in some countries that is more than a week’s worth of wages). A smile and taking a genuine interest in the customer goes a long ways with me.
4) Divers need to realize that dive boats see many different customers weekly with a full spectrum of experience levels. Divers should follow the boat's safety policies and DMs should be that first line of safety for any dive boat. They have very little to go by to know what your experience level is until you talk with them. In my second point I mentioned that I do not care for DMs that assume I am incompetent; but until I am communicate to them that I am not, they really do not have any other choice but to assume I have the very basic set of dive skills. I find that if I dive with my own kit, DMs will leave me alone more than if I dive with the shop’s kit. It is sort of a subtle signal to them. If I use their equipment, however, I have found that when I get my weights is a great time to inform them that I know my weights and know how to adjust my kit. Again tactful communication goes a long ways.
That’s my 2¢ worth…
~Me~
1) For the "average recreational" dive boat (techies is a whole other set of circumstances - agreed no touchy), how many divers do a "proper bubby check"?It is even worse with Insta-Buddies where most divers are lucky to just each others names. For a DM to verify that air is on prior to entry should be a no-brainer for anyone. If a diver forgets to turn on their air...what else have they forgotten? I like it when the DM personally walks around the boat and does a scan of each diver, both before and after the dive. This lets me know they are developing their own situational awareness for that group of divers.
2) DMs who use tact and DMs who do not. I do not care for DMs who assume that I am incompetent kitting up and man-handle me accordingly. Communication is so simple, yet it seems it is all too often never used. If a DM asks to adjust my harness or tells me they are verifying my air prior to touching me, I have no problems with that...like others have said it is THEIR JOB. I do not like it when they just grab my straps and start to hank on them. I really DO KNOW how I like my own equipment. The regulator is my life-link and if anyone touches it, I will re-verify it myself.
3) I truly understand that there are so many villages that have lost their idiots and at times it seems like they all want to go diving at the same time. But running a dive operation is still a service industry and if the DM expects a tip, they should treat the divers as customers and not internees...I have seen both. If a DM provides decent customer service, I tip them well; if they go out of their way to REALLY provide customer service, I tip them extremely well (in some countries that is more than a week’s worth of wages). A smile and taking a genuine interest in the customer goes a long ways with me.
4) Divers need to realize that dive boats see many different customers weekly with a full spectrum of experience levels. Divers should follow the boat's safety policies and DMs should be that first line of safety for any dive boat. They have very little to go by to know what your experience level is until you talk with them. In my second point I mentioned that I do not care for DMs that assume I am incompetent; but until I am communicate to them that I am not, they really do not have any other choice but to assume I have the very basic set of dive skills. I find that if I dive with my own kit, DMs will leave me alone more than if I dive with the shop’s kit. It is sort of a subtle signal to them. If I use their equipment, however, I have found that when I get my weights is a great time to inform them that I know my weights and know how to adjust my kit. Again tactful communication goes a long ways.
That’s my 2¢ worth…
~Me~
OP
Herb-alaska
Contributor
Capt Frank if your deckhand has a clue then I would never say no thank you in fact this is the first time I have ever said no thank you. If I Trust you then thank you for the assistance if I don't trust you then it is no thank you please don't touch my gear. If you then don't retract your hand then I get irritated
Dr. Lecter
Contributor
It's coming home as the other kind that he's trying to avoid. An earlier poster said that they'd happily submit to the indignation of a valve check if it saved even one new diver from entering the water without their air on -- I wonder how many divers they're willing to send to the bottom with their air turned off because the DM had a brain fart/didn't understand doubles/whatever. If I go into the water with my valves off, I'd rather it be because I screwed up than because someone screwed me.
Of course, if it's a boat's policy to have someone patronize me/threaten my safety in order to have a safer assembly line for everyone else, then go ahead and touch my valves right as I'm about to enter the water. I will then delay everyone else while I double check them before entering, because I am sure as Hell not trusting my life to you, and then we'll all be happy. Unless you're the only game in town or you're offering a ride to sites I really, really like, you and I will not be doing business again after that.
On the tip, though, it really comes down to whether the DM handled the request well. If they politely explain that it's boat policy and they have to check, I would politely accept and then conduct my own check after they'd finished and before entering...wouldn't hurt their tip, though I'd give whoever enforced the policy an earful. If they're annoying about it, though, they're not getting a dime more from me than I already agreed to pay for the dive.
OP
Herb-alaska
Contributor
bob I know that in speaking with you for like five minutes I would be aware that you know what you know what you're talking about and would then welcome your assistance but I see no reason to trust a person just because they say I'm a dive masterI thought you meant to be non-confrontational ...
Why not let the DM do his or her job, then reach back and check your valve after they're done? Yours should always be the last hand on your valve before you enter the water ... but that doesn't negate the dive boat crew following their boat policies. I HAVE seen people forget to turn their air on before ... more than once ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
but I did learn something yesterday. The phone number of a water taxi that will give me the ride I need for a lot cheaper .
Ditto. Including the part where the DM turned off my gas.
I've found that the way a DM behaves has a strong connection with the quality of the prevalent clientele.
All the best, James
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