Just for laughs...

[The Chairman]

The video I'm seeing is a variant of Sidemounting called Monkey Diving. The only requirement for a Monkey Diver is that their tanks are configured like stage bottles. It looks a bit silly, ergo the name Monkey Diver. It sprang up as a game in California where often no BCs were even used: just an AL80 and a scooter. They put flags on the back of their masks and the point of the game was to pull off the opponent's flag. The last guy with a flag wins. It's all about agility mid water and that's just what the video demonstrates. Personally, I am too staid a diver to do it like a monkey. I like my trim proper and my gear aligned... well mostly aligned. I think I will disallow any videos of me while I'm in anything resembling sidemount from this point on. Some of you are vicious!

 

[Razorista]

So this really is an different video...

...sadly, same people, same place, same equipment - same problems.

Actually that is a close approximation of the state of sidemount diving education here.

I do think the 2013 video is not really the same people, but it looks related.

Hard to defend, but it is a cheap class with one or two dives at an indoor location - just an introduction, nothing much, and the price reflects that.
It is cheaper than a dry-suit specialty, and identical for instructors with only a sightly higher certification price (meaning instructors are mostly at the same level as the students - just more experienced divers, not sidemounters).

Calling that 'sidemount instruction' devalues the effort some instructors have put into it, but most call what they teach 'monkey-diving' here anyway.

There are only a few experienced sidemounters in Germany, most of whom took the training outside the country and the most highly skilled of the German speaking instructors have relocated to places like Mexico to teach there.

In several years of searching I could not find a single instructor with more experience than than my own. Most are behind by about 200 dives, even counting classes. We also have some very experienced people but many do not dive publicly in Germany, as exploration cave diving is a secretive matter for quiet insiders here.

As I said in my first post:
We have to take what we can get.
Most people here think they need a certification before they can use equipment, classes like that offer a cheap cert that allows the student to seek out better instructors afterwards.
At least everyone is able to improve on what he 'learned' in a class like that himself.

 

[The Chairman]

Monkey Diving has it's own following. Like I said it's a variant. It would be like biting into a Valencia orange and complaining that it doesn't taste like a Naval Orange. Of course it doesn't: it's a different flavor. Does everyone dive like me? I hope not. It would be a boring world if that were the case. Can I learn from and enjoy others who dive differently? I do and I do.

Now show me a diver in any configuration that is stirring up crap or kicking the reef and then I would get bent out of shape. Those guys look like they're having fun monkey diving and I don't see a potential impact on any environment. Dive and let dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I won't comment on the videos, especially since I didn't see the first one before it was taken down. And I'd be hesitant to openly criticize another instructor unless I was seeing them doing something that I considered dangerous. But I will say that I've seen some dismal examples of sidemount instruction over the past couple of years. It seems like the major agencies have latched onto it as another revenue stream, and are making it excessively easy for open water instructors to teach sidemount classes ... usually with as little as four dives in a sidemount rig.

So let me ask those of you who are complaining in this thread ... how much do you think you could learn from someone who has four dives more in whatever they're trying to teach you than you do?

We have a local instructor here who's trying to make a name for himself as a sidemount instructor. I've shared a dive site with him while he's teaching, and it's really hard for me to bite my tongue and not say anything. What's really depressing is that he's been teaching these classes for over a year now, and hasn't progressed himself to the point where he's got his tanks in proper trim or is using anything remotely resembling good buoyancy skills. All he's really doing is reinforcing bad habits ... and once ingrained those are really difficult to correct.

I love diving sidemount ... but when improperly learned the drawbacks outweigh the benefits and all you're really doing is chasing a fad. Is this acceptable to you?

For those who say there's a right and wrong way to address this, what's your idea of the right way? I damn sure don't know ... it's one of the few times when I strive hard to just keep my mouth shut and wish those poor students good luck ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Johanan]

Having seen that video, in the absence of any commentary, I would not have questioned equipment or technique as someone with no experience in other than single tank rec diving. Even looking at those, I have no idea what is "normal" for sidemount.

Mostly it's about cylinders hanging below divers' belly or positionded almost perpendicularly to body (creating drag) when they should be on a level with and strictly paralel to it. It's about dishevelled hoses, about second stages dangling when not used and the octos stowed on the cylinders instead of worn on necklaces. Some of them use makeshift sidemount bcds which do not provide a proper trim for the cylinders and may be ok for a fun dive in a pool but not so good for OW, leave alone caves or wrecks. All of that makes the divers look and perhaps also feel very clumsy, compared to what a sidemount really can offer.

Maybe Andy was a bit tough, cracking down on this video. If it is just someones personal memories, no problem with it. However, if it is an invitation to dive sidemount (as the titles say), it is indead misleading and misrepresenting. It was a strange feeling to see how they are performing skills as if in a normal sm class but exactly in a way I was taught not to do. Quite repulsive, in fact. I remember, when I considered a sidemount course, one instructor said, he could train me - sidemount or whatever. He could even strap the tank across my chest, he said. It is good for potential students to get such instructors off the streats. I was lucky to have a course with the above mentioned Garry Dallas. Check out his website and you will see the difference.

Ok, I have to ask, of all the sidemount training going on what percentage of people do you think will actually dive in a restriction requiring it? Andy, of course I know you do, but for all the others they'll just be diving a system that's less than optimal from a gas sharing etc standpoint.

I don't dive in restricted places yet - only OW so far, and I gladly do it sidemount. It's not because conditions are "requiring it" but because sidemount is a great configuration regarding safety, gas sharing, getting out of trouble with reg malfunctions, great for people with back problems, very natural and fun for diving twin cylinders. I just love it. If/when some day I will penetrate wrecks or caves, I won't need to learn the most apropriate configuration. You can dive sidemount everywhere!

 

[shoredivr]

Looks like twin stage mount diving with the way the tanks are hanging low, and no buttplate.

You don't know what you don't know.

The description of the state of SM training in Germany, and the cultural concept of needing a certification to do anything is quite interesting.

But really, what I want to know is where is that pool? I want one of those here!

---------- Post added December 11th, 2013 at 12:16 PM ----------

@gcarter, the video posted just above by at the bottom of his post "we can sidemount anywhere" shows nice bottle placement perpendicular to the torso, for starters.

 

[DevonDiver]

.... what I want to know is where is that pool? I want one of those here!

It is a truly joyous pool !!!

 

[Razorista]

But really, what I want to know is where is that pool? I want one of those here!

I think it would be impolite to mention the name of the dive location in this thread.
But as there are only three or four indoor locations in Germany at the moment it is quite easy to find. It is more or less a 10 meter cube, looks much bigger in the videos (I thought in the US there where much bigger similar spots...).

It is the dive spot I have the most trouble with getting other people to join me for a 'low-level-fun-'dive or equipment check.
Most people only go there once (or once or twice a year if they really like it), or they want to visit the 'wellness'-area mostly.

In contrast to that I just love those places.
Some of them even allow solo dives (since they have underwater cameras or windows to watch for trouble) so they are ideal places to try out things that would be to boring or to awkward to try with a partner.
Much saver to try something there first, too.

The description of the state of SM training in Germany, and the cultural concept of needing a certification to do anything is quite interesting.

I am always irritated by this.
There are next to no real 'laws' concerning diving here, but I actually know nobody (or perhaps one or two) who did not get a basic certification first below the age of 60 or so and only a single divesite that never asks for a certification (but that is a principle there).
You can find hundreds of discussions concerning the need for a 'dry-suit' cert or absolutely hilarious things like... aw no, better to give no examples here.
I only have to drive a few kilometers over the nearest inner-European border and will find next to no divespot that ever asks for any certification (I never saw a single sidemounter there and still nobody ever raised an eye on seeing me).

Still, perhaps because of that, most backmounters here are highly trained and know what they are doing (there are always exceptions, of course).

Regarding sidemount (or anything 'new and untried') this education system is less useful.
I thought myself l needed the sidemount certification and in contrast to that it certainly has not hindered me in any way to always laugh at the question of certification and never really showing one (I sometimes 'admitted' to have one though).

People are always flexible but the education system is not.
I do not think there will be a significant number of sidemount divers in my area before training material from all major organizations exists.

But people are working on it and in a few years they will be as critical as you are now. We lag behind most of the rest of the world, but sidemount is just to convincing, even the slowest will catch up someday.

Those guys look like they're having fun monkey diving and I don't see a potential impact on any environment. Dive and let dive.

I could not agree more.
Though 'monkey-diving' is much more useful in clear and deep openwater than in a small, dark and silty 10 Meter sweet-water lake and it is just ridiculous to clip in the cylinders while the bungee is uselessly dangling around, even when you are 'only' monkey-diving.

What I tried to point out is that at least some people are trying, devaluing their efforts does not always help.
At the moment they are only helping the students to be able to help themselves afterwards, but some of those students could still seek advanced training elsewhere to come back as experienced instructors someday.

As I said there are already some highly skilled sidemount instructors here, but compared to the number of divers they could never train everyone, just wait a few years and we will soon live up to our reputation and criticize the rest of the word again for not diving the way we do (just a joke).

The contrast of monkey-diving to the very serious approach of normal diving education is something that certainly played a big role in convincing me that this is going to be the only way I will touch water for the rest of my life. Seeking perfection is a personal thing and not everyone needs and likes that - but if you can tell me how to have a Razor2 or similar system less than perfectly controlled (or close to that) after a few hundred dives, I would be seriously interested to know.

I do not want to understate the quality of sidemount training in general, but first and foremost you have to get people into the water in a survivable condition (and preferably out again).
Afterwards they can sort out themselves.
If you can find better instructors, fine, it is rarely needed at dive spots here and on guided holiday trips, however.
But after another few (or an few hundred) practice dives, depth, caves and wrecks tend to get interesting - there is enough higher education in that to keep every instructor occupied (it is also harder and more educating to spot flaws in videos of dives like that).

 

[gcarter]

Ok, I have to ask, of all the sidemount training going on what percentage of people do you think will actually dive in a restriction requiring it? Andy, of course I know you do, but for all the others they'll just be diving a system that's less than optimal from a gas sharing etc standpoint.

My understanding - happy to be corrected - is that the attraction of side mount to many newer adherents has nothing to do with restrictions and more to do with bad or aging backs and knees.

 

[The Chairman]

My understanding - happy to be corrected - is that the attraction of side mount to many newer adherents has nothing to do with restrictions and more to do with bad or aging backs and knees.

And ankles. I dive side mount in caves because it's easier on my ankles.