Suggestion Feedback on keeping ScubaBoard members

[gypsyjim]

This question is directed at all members, new and old. It is actually a multiple part question, and is designed to get us all thinking about what ScubaBoard is, or could be for someone just discovering us today or tomorrow.

Two weeks ago on Utila Colleen and I were part of 4 couples with no previous contact who were diving on the same boat for a week, so we had lots of time to chat. It turned out that 5 (6 including myself) of the 9 divers including the DM, were all members of ScubaBoard at one time or another, but I was the only actively participating SM user.

A subsequent conversation with a friend who is also a moderator, has had me thinking about this, so here are my questions:

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1) What attracted you to ScubaBoard in the first place?

2) Are you satisfied that the board addresses your needs adequately? And if not what would you change, if you could to make it do so

3) Why do you think other folks who have joined, have not stayed around?

4) Do you have ideas on what the board either did not provide well, or what might have done to scare them away, without becoming participating members?

5) Do you have ideas or suggestions of new ways to both attract and keep new members, new divers involved, and satisfied with this forum?
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---------- Post added March 3rd, 2014 at 08:30 AM ----------

I will start by adding my own 2 cents.

I discovered SB while researching a dive trip back in '05, and was not a terribly active member for some time. I did though, find the info I was seeking.

I did soon after that did make some friends on the board, as both DeputyDan and Herman offered advice and invited my family to join their group for a trip to Bonaire.

I also later asked for underwater photography advice, and got a lot of help from such diverse members as ScubaSteve and DandyDon, who were more than willing to help a struggling novice.

I had a few conflicts in some of the threads along the way, especially early on, with some of the more vocal know it alls, but while that slowed me down a bit and kept me quiet, it did not scare me off. I just spent more time lurking till I became more comfortable standing up for my beliefs, and not afraid of the loud mouths. It just took me time to realize by lurking that they were a small minority, and not particularly as well respected universally as they might have thought, which made me feel less the outsider.

(Note) I think a lot of that 'know it all' attitude seems to have disappeared from the boards, or at least become far less of an issue. I heard a lot of feedback from non member divers between '95 and about 2000 that this "slamming of 'stupid questions' " was a big turn off, but I do not sense this same complaint from my more recent contactsd, when discussing SB. Now it seems more like SB is not supplying what divers are seeking, and they are just moving on to other sources of info.

I know many folks have moved on to FB, but while I enjoy FB a lot myself, I have never seen it as having the potential to reach as many divers, or to serve as a useful search base for dive related questions.

 

[gypsyjim]

And no... I won't tell you his current user name either. He's made peace with himself and the diving community. Good for him.

What, no





A good witch hunt now and then is good for community spirit (and the sales of rope and pitch branch torches)!

 

[danvolker]

As I said there, your comments were in poor taste ... to say the least. You effectively blamed a dead person for their own death by claiming that if they only used the same $400 specialty fins that you prefer the accident wouldn't have happened. On its face, it's an absurd claim. On a more social level, it's disrespectful of the victims.

Bob, This was is an accidents and incident discussion forum...it is not passings.... We are supposed to be discussing what could be done differently.
Further, there are a great many people on Scubaboard I know as of now, either from meeting in person, or from long time chatting over the internet.....These are the people I have great concern for---and while I mean no disrespect to the divers in this particular tragedy, I don't know them, I believe they are NOT members of Scubaboard, and the ideas I have are not for them, the ideas are for the SB members that could benefit from an accident analysis. Your saying this is disrespectful of the victims, is disingenusous at best.

And I did not say these people needed $400 DiveR freedving fins to survive.... I was saying they needed functional fins ( of which there are many dozen under $120 a pair I have gone into at length) and many brands of split fins are so poor in propulsion for emergency scenarios, that this is effectively bad planning for an area known to occasionally have dangerous currents. I talked about much more than fin choice.

Others correctly tried to point out to you that the accident had nothing to do with their fins ... it had everything to do with the fact that (a) their dive op made a poor choice of dive site, given the conditions, and (b) the boat abandoned them in order to go back and get more fuel. Those were the relevant topics of discussion ... not blaming the victim because they didn't make the same equipment choices you do.

And you ignore that I was pushing the competence and planning for potentially being left at a dive site by any boat---and how would you handle this...to have absolutely no plan, and bad or no gear for this, is not good dive planning. Your continual insistence that I am "blaming the victim" is just cheap shots by you....

I understand that you believe you're on a quest to save people's lives, but as I pointed out earlier, Dan ... I think your delivery of the message is a good example of what drives people away from ScubaBoard. You can't seem to find a way to get that message out without offending people, and most people are just going to decide they can't be bothered.

An important part of communication, Dan, is how your message gets received. That isn't the receiver's responsibility ... it's yours.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You know, maybe in real life, with the nuances and body language, you and I would have a conversation where things one of us said, made a lot more sense to the other.....But here on SB, so much that you say seems like you are trying to avoid dealing with the issues I raise, and instead make every thing about how mean I am to pick on some gear, or on divers without a plan, or without the experience, whatever.

I think my message gets out, about things you choose not to discuss....You don't like it, and you attack me because these ideas are not Politically Correct to you, or because they interfere with your ideas on how a "Dive Industry Pro" should not be slamming certain accepted facets of the Dive World.
You call yourself a gear agnostic....you don't see bad gear.....Of course, Shop owners the world over, love you for this, as do the MFGs. You think all humans can learn to dive--that anyone with a credit card SHOULD be certified. I don't--- I see over a quarter of all current divers as "Never-evers", that should not be diving, not now or ever.
I see a lot of very bad gear, and I like to call a spade a spade.
And when an accident happens, I plan on discussing anything about this accident that could help someone else in the future. This will pretty much guarantee your ire in future threads.....but hey, some of your disagreements are EXACTLY what I needed to UNDERSCORE the points I was trying to make....so I guess I should thank you !!!!


P.S.
I take no personal offense at Bob comments, even the ones I see aimed at me.....and if Bob was ever to visit Palm Beach to dive, I would want to dive with him, and make sure that he had a good dive vacation while here....and I would certainly do my best to repair the Internet communication disfunction that has been festering lately

 

[gypsyjim]

I am beginning to understand why mods see the need to split parts of a thread off......

 

[Ricky B]

Excising just a bit happens a lot. However, we have felt that mod communications to the users should remain private. This forum has been built on trust and protecting your privacy is an important part of that trust. Earlier a user complained that we had deleted his post while leaving the rude post he was reacting to, to stand. How much more alienated would he have felt if he got a public denouncement for calling someone idiotic?

Certainly most people prefer to be castigated privately. But I don't consider excising a post and noting that the excised portion did not comply with the rules of the forum to be a castigation or, as was put in the quoted post, "a public denouncement."

For example, take a post in which a poster is arguing a point, and his post goes something like this:

Blah, blah, blah. So if you think that X is better than Y, you're even stupider than I thought.​

I view the negative characterization of the poster as a person to be a personal attack, which does not add value to the discussion. All it is is venting by a poster frustrated by not being able to persuade someone else with, what is obvious to him, impeccable logic.

Let's say the moderator excises a portion of such a post so that it reads as follows:

Blah, blah, blah. So if you think that X is better than Y, you're [Moderator: portion deletion; negative characterization of the poster as a person, as opposed to the ideas expressed, is not permitted under the rule].​

Is that a public denouncement? I don't see it that way. It is a public correction, but if you're willing to call someone else an idiot in violation of the rules, you should not complain if your post is corrected. Posters on Scubaboard get corrected all the time by other posters. One poster says, "MOD for EAN 32 is 95 feet," and another poster says "No, it's 110 feet." Why is it wrong for a mod to correct a post in violation of the rules and to explain why the post was corrected? The tone of the correction is important, but a neutral, non-condemnatory statement should not be considered a denouncement or castigation.

Simply excising the offending portion of a post with an explanation for the excision is not even an admonishment in my view, though it's implicit that continuing that kind of behavior will lead to admonishment, which I agree should be private.

With the approach I propose, the thrust of the poster's comment is left intact. Even though the insulted party can see that the poster made some kind of insult, he or she has the satisfaction of seeing the insult itself deleted. The poster has the satisfaction of seeing his post remain, and if he doesn't like the public correction, he can edit the post to delete the offending sentence along with the correction, or he can ask a mod to delete his post.

And yes, I am saying that it's a "teachable moment," one that in the long run can lead to fewer teachable moments as posters are reminded from time to time that responses should be to the ideas expressed in a post, not characterizations of the person expressing the idea. "That idea is idiotic" is fair comment. "Only an idiot would say that" is not.

By the way, I don't know the practice here, but if a mod excises a portion of a post, I think it important that the mod always be required to note the place and fact of deletion. It is truly unfair to delete a portion of someone's post without putting the readers on notice that the comment has been modified by someone other than the poster. If that is the unvarying practice, I commend you. If not, it should be changed.

 

[They call me Tater]

Haha as a general lurker who visits daily, it is exactly the over opinionated posts of 'lecturers' that turn me off. The frequent posters who tend to find creative ways to say the same things in thread after thread makes for a boring and predictable read. I skip them and prefer to stick to shorter threads before the horse is dead the first time. Please continue.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I'm glad your "came out" here. What would it take to get you to post more often. It seems to me you may be one of the most appropriate people to respond to the OP's question. I think what you have to say on the topic would be very worthwhile for us to read:admingreet:

 

[gypsyjim]

I'm glad your "came out" here. What would it take to get you to post more often. It seems to me you may be one of the most appropriate people to respond to the OP's question. I think what you have to say on the topic would be very worthwhile for us to read:admingreet:

+1!!!

 

[Diver0001]

Why is it wrong for a mod to correct a post in violation of the rules and to explain why the post was corrected? The tone of the correction is important, but a neutral, non-condemnatory statement should not be considered a denouncement or castigation.

This is usually done when either the remaining bit of the post could have a substantial effect on the discussion or mods have some doubt as to whether or not what was said was meant the way it was taken.

With the approach I propose, the thrust of the poster's comment is left intact. Even though the insulted party can see that the poster made some kind of insult, he or she has the satisfaction of seeing the insult itself deleted. The poster has the satisfaction of seeing his post remain, and if he doesn't like the public correction, he can edit the post to delete the offending sentence along with the correction, or he can ask a mod to delete his post.

This really depends on the context. With some people, you have to let them know that if they've spent an hour writing a mean post that they've lost that hour, not that we're going to fix it for them. Teachable moments are fine but we've found over time (course of years) that those people who get moderated most often (a very small minority) don't tend learn from their mistakes.

By the way, I don't know the practice here, but if a mod excises a portion of a post, I think it important that the mod always be required to note the place and fact of deletion. It is truly unfair to delete a portion of someone's post without putting the readers on notice that the comment has been modified by someone other than the poster. If that is the unvarying practice, I commend you. If not, it should be changed.

It's unfair to take any moderating action without informing both the person being moderated and the person who reported it. I know that it hasn't always happened but every moderator is well aware of this and is expected to adhere to it.

R..

 

[gypsyjim]

Haha as a general lurker who visits daily, it is exactly the over opinionated posts of 'lecturers' that turn me off. The frequent posters who tend to find creative ways to say the same things in thread after thread makes for a boring and predictable read. I skip them and prefer to stick to shorter threads before the horse is dead the first time. Please continue.

Hi Tater.

I echo your sentiment. Even years on as an active SB member, and quite active in some threads , I still scan the day's active threads and I enjoy seeing new threads with a minimal number of posts. If such a short thread is one that I either think sounds interesting, or if I think it is a subject or question I might be able to help with I am more likely to open the thread, than if it is one that already has over 100 or so posts.
By 100 posts in a thread, or even 50, I feel that it is likely that most sides have already had their say, and the thread will have become a community dialog, which likely I will have nothing new to add to.

When I was new to SB these short threads were the only threads that I felt comfortable actually posting in. Longer threads, with an ongoing discussion I tended to read, but just lurk around the edges.

For me, it was trying to share pics, and ask questions about potential destinations that first got me to dare posting. Do not be afraid to speak your mind. Even voluminous, major posters may not have anything more valuable to contribute than you in a subject, and even if someone disagrees with you, and says so, loudly, that does not make you wrong. Heck, even if you ARE in error, you still have the right to express your opinion, no matter who the other poster in that thread may be.

Ask Pete,

I am no longer afraid to speak up when I disagree! As a "newbie", I never dared raise my hand and say, "I disagree" with any of the "older" members.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, This was is an accidents and incident discussion forum...it is not passings.... We are supposed to be discussing what could be done differently.
Further, there are a great many people on Scubaboard I know as of now, either from meeting in person, or from long time chatting over the internet.....These are the people I have great concern for---and while I mean no disrespect to the divers in this particular tragedy, I don't know them, I believe they are NOT members of Scubaboard, and the ideas I have are not for them, the ideas are for the SB members that could benefit from an accident analysis. Your saying this is disrespectful of the victims, is disingenusous at best.

And I did not say these people needed $400 DiveR freedving fins to survive.... I was saying they needed functional fins ( of which there are many dozen under $120 a pair I have gone into at length) and many brands of split fins are so poor in propulsion for emergency scenarios, that this is effectively bad planning for an area known to occasionally have dangerous currents. I talked about much more than fin choice.

And you ignore that I was pushing the competence and planning for potentially being left at a dive site by any boat---and how would you handle this...to have absolutely no plan, and bad or no gear for this, is not good dive planning. Your continual insistence that I am "blaming the victim" is just cheap shots by you..

You know, maybe in real life, with the nuances and body language, you and I would have a conversation where things one of us said, made a lot more sense to the other.....But here on SB, so much that you say seems like you are trying to avoid dealing with the issues I raise, and instead make every thing about how mean I am to pick on some gear, or on divers without a plan, or without the experience, whatever.

I think my message gets out, about things you choose not to discuss....You don't like it, and you attack me because these ideas are not Politically Correct to you, or because they interfere with your ideas on how a "Dive Industry Pro" should not be slamming certain accepted facets of the Dive World.
You call yourself a gear agnostic....you don't see bad gear.....Of course, Shop owners the world over, love you for this, as do the MFGs. You think all humans can learn to dive--that anyone with a credit card SHOULD be certified. I don't--- I see over a quarter of all current divers as "Never-evers", that should not be diving, not now or ever.
I see a lot of very bad gear, and I like to call a spade a spade.
And when an accident happens, I plan on discussing anything about this accident that could help someone else in the future. This will pretty much guarantee your ire in future threads.....but hey, some of your disagreements are EXACTLY what I needed to UNDERSCORE the points I was trying to make....so I guess I should thank you !!!!


P.S.
I take no personal offense at Bob comments, even the ones I see aimed at me.....and if Bob was ever to visit Palm Beach to dive, I would want to dive with him, and make sure that he had a good dive vacation while here....and I would certainly do my best to repair the Internet communication disfunction that has been festering lately

Hopefully this won't go down the rathole again, but I'll reply with some points that I think are pertinent to the conversation.

First off, while I can relate to your desire to be helpful, you need to understand that whenever there's an accident that results in a fatality, friends and family members of the deceased tend to comb the internet looking for anything they can find out about what happened. There's usually very little coming from the source of the accident itself, and often that leads them here to ScubaBoard. While the victims of this accident were "strangers" to you, people who loved them will read your comments. They will usually be non-divers who will interpret your comments in a whole different context than you intended. And while you might not care what those people think ... I tend to have some empathy with why they're here. That's why I found your comments off-putting ... you might not have intended it that way, but you did come off as though you were blaming the victims.

Secondly, you made an assumption that these people were wearing split fins ... when in fact you don't know what they were wearing. For all you know, they were wearing exactly the fins you were promoting. You also made assumptions about their skills, physical abilities and training that had no basis in any facts at your disposal. While speculation can have some value to an accident discussion, in this case I do think it really distracted from the intent of your message, as you've described it.

Third point ... your message about the benefits of freediving fins is out there. You've been posting the same thing on thread after thread, all over the board. I think by now everyone who reads ScubaBoard is aware of your fin preference, and why you prefer them. There is no benefit on repeating that message in the context of an accident where two people died. If anything, that weakens your overall credibility.

Fourth ... no one who knows me would possibly associate me with the term "Politically Correct" ... I doubt very many people on ScubaBoard who have never met me but have been reading my posts on a regular basis would either.

Fifth ... you and I probably have a lot more in common than you realize in our personal equipment choices. It's true that I don't see "bad gear", in terms of things like different types of fins, BCDs, regulator configurations and other popular options ... but I do see bad applications of gear when it doesn't fit the diver properly, or isn't appropriate for their choices of diving style or profiles. But under the correct circumstances I can't think of too much about diving gear that I'd call inherently unsafe. I see far more wrong with poor technique or poor decision-making than I do with less than optimal equipment choices. My educational approach isn't to tell someone what equipment they should use, but to help them understand the limitations of the different choices that are available and how to get the best use out of the choices they make. I don't sell dive gear ... therefore I have no stake in one choice over another. I do sell training, and that's what I prefer to focus my efforts on.

Fifth ... I don't think all humans can or should learn to dive ... but I'd put far fewer constraints on them than you apparently would. The constraints I would put on them would have more to do with their mental approach to diving than it would their physical abilities or their choice in dive equipment. Technique is teachable ... attitude, not so much. And I think there's more than one "right" way to dive, and what's right for one person may not be the best approach for another.

As for the credit card comment ... it's just another example of what I find objectionable in a lot of your posts. It's not calling a spade a spade, Dan ... it's nonsense that adds no value to the conversation.

Finally Dan, nothing personal ... but I don't think I'd enjoy diving with you in real life. You come across like a seriously judgmental person, and I prefer diving with people who can just relax and have a good time. I don't get hung up on people who wear split fins, or who want to use a pony bottle or an Air II. I don't choose to use that equipment, personally ... but if they're fun to be around and have a good attitude I'll adapt and go dive with them. When I see someone diving with poor technique, my inclination isn't to make a video of it and post it on the internet, criticizing them for it ... my first reaction is to approach them and see if I can help them learn a better way. More often than not it won't be in a class, but by offering to go diving with them and giving them an example of what good diving looks like. You'd be surprised how many people only need that much to overcome bad technique ... and I get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it. Conversely, I tend to avoid people who take themselves too seriously. They're the people who will always find something to "critique" you about after the dive, even if it's something very minor that has no impact on either the function of the team or the safety of the dive. And that just isn't my idea of a good time. Diving's a recreational activity for me, not some sort of competition where I have to constantly be on my guard to live up to the expectations of my dive buddy. I dive for fun ... and I'd prefer doing it with people who are in it to just relax and enjoy themselves. It's a compatibility thing, we're better off hanging in different circles. Nothing personal ... I have friends who I don't dive with anymore for pretty much the same reasons ... and they're still my friends.

I get where you're coming from Dan ... really I do. But imagine how much more effective your message would be if you could present it without making assumptions about other people's methods and motives. Imagine how different your post would read if you didn't assume that these people were wearing equipment you find objectionable, and instead only focused on the facts of the accident as you know them. You have a lot of knowledge, Dan ... way more than I do about certain things, because of your background and the environment in which you dive. But your message gets lost in the noise a lot of times, primarily due to the assumptions you make and the tone of your delivery. And to be fair Dan, sometimes I have the same problem ... and as Pete pointed out earlier, when you're close to the problem it's difficult to see how much you're a part of it. So it isn't always a bad thing for someone to point it out to you. But you have to be receptive to what they're trying to tell you. Otherwise people just tune you out and move on to a different thread.

And that does get right back to the question posed by the first post in this thread ... sometimes people like you and me, who seriously want to share what we know with the other users on this board, get so caught up in what we're trying to say that we don't realize we're the very reason why so many people stop listening and don't participate.

If we agree on nothing else, let's agree to be more aware of that ... and try to throttle things back a bit so that others will be more encouraged to engage in the conversation. We might both benefit from the experience ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)