Cost differences Mexico v Florida

[rgdiver1]

I did cavern/intro and full cave in Florida. In my full cave class, my classmates had done their cavern and intro in Mexico. It was very interesting watching them at Ginnie on the first day. They had never been in a high flow cave before. It was a real challenge for them at first, while I had been diving in places like Ginnie and Little River for over a year. Later when I went cave diving in Mexico for the first time, having been a Florida cave diver for some time made it relatively easy to dive the cenotes. Finally I would not go by price alone in making comparisons in training. There can be (and there often are) big differences in quality between cavern/cave diving courses. Choose your agency and instructor carefully.

 

[rddvet]

There are too many non-standard line configurations in their caves and that means that there are too many instructors down there who tolerate and/or embrace that kind of strokery..

I'd like to hear specifics on the nonstandard line configurations you're talking about. I'm not saying I necessary disagree with your point, but I don't know what you mean by nonstandard. In MX, there are tons of cenotes and therefore often line arrows disagree with what you're best exit strategy would be. As well some arrows point to a cenote that would be a very difficult emergency exit. And yes, there are many jumps cut pretty close to the mainline.

The reason I ask is because prior to my first trip to MX I was told about all of these "Crazy" nonstandard lines in MX, and the reality they were correct for MX, they just aren't what we're accustomed to in FL, mainly because we don't have the amount of entrances into the same system that they do. If you're not paying attention in MX the arrows that point to the closest exit (not your exit) can be a little tricky if you let them sneak up on you, but that's why you kill them with your personal markers. I can't really say that I've seen anything I would refer to as nonstandard.

There's a big misperception about MX caves in the US about how crazy and dangerous they are. In my opinion the only major danger is that you can easily get so far back into them that often you're making several navigational decisions. If you're not well trained or observant you can get into trouble.

As far as strokery, pulling arrows on people that are still in the caves during the arrow wars falls under that category. I don't know that the MX line standards do. There are some caves that are way better set up than others. If you look at a cave that Bil Phillips lined you'd wish all of our FL caves were the same. I'm sure the MX instructors look at our lack of t's in FL as strokery.

 

[The Chairman]

The high flow caves mask buoyancy and to some degree trim issues.

On the flip side---I do agree with this comment...

It's why God created Peacock!

I'd like to hear specifics on the nonstandard line configurations you're talking about. I'm not saying I necessary disagree with your point, but I don't know what you mean by nonstandard. In MX, there are tons of cenotes and therefore often line arrows disagree with what you're best exit strategy would be. As well some arrows point to a cenote that would be a very difficult emergency exit. And yes, there are many jumps cut pretty close to the mainline.

You've done such a good job proving my point, why would I muddy the waters further?

the reality they were correct for MX, they just aren't what we're accustomed to in FL,

To translate: They are non-standard. For the most part, I dive with a guide in Mexican caves. Why? They know every line non-sequitur and let me know before I get there. Fore warned is fore armed.

As far as strokery, pulling arrows on people that are still in the caves during the arrow wars falls under that category.

That's a felony, not strokery. That has nothing to do with Mexico and everything to do with murderous intent.

There are some caves that are way better set up than others.

Some caves in Mexico are over lined. Some are under lined. There's just no consistency. When I hit a cave in F Fl, I don't expect every passage to be marked. Leave some room for me to explore, please.

I think it's great that you love the way Mexican caves are lined. While I can and have negotiated them, they make me far more nervous than the caves in my back yard. The best part about Mexican caves? They take some pressure off of N Fl caves!

 

[rddvet]

How is that nonstandard? Who makes the standard? The people in FL? That's my point. The things I point out are what is different about MX than FL. That doesn't make it strokery or unsafe. You're using a Florida-centric mindset. If that's what's common in MX isn't that they're standard?
Regardless of if it's different than what you're used to, your skillset from basic cave should make all of this a nonissue.
If you want to see strokery, take a trip to France. You will see crap you couldn't imagine. Constantly changing lines and markers, 20 different colors and lines all on one line, t's that look like somebody's jump.

The standard for arrows in MX is to point towards the closest exit? Isn't that the same as it is here? Hell, remember when Peacock pointed towards Pothole as an exit eventhough there was no way my fatass could have gotten an arm through it?

 

[The Chairman]

Who makes the standard?

According to YOU... it's not even standard within Mexico. I like my cave lines consistently consistent. I'm sorry you don't think I'm entitled to my opinions. I'm going to keep them anyway!

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

remember when Peacock pointed towards Pothole as an exit eventhough there was no way my fatass could have gotten an arm through it?

When we (NFSA) pointed arrows toward Pothole as an exit, I exited there to be sure I could in fact exit. Once it became restricted after one of the floods we removed it as an exit point.

Now I wonder who does anything there as far as maintaining lines.

 

[rddvet]

You're entitled to your opinions as am I. I get bothered by the continued misinformation about how scary and dangerous the lines in MX are by Fl cave divers. My first trip to MX made me wonder what I was missing.

 

[rddvet]

When we (NFSA) pointed arrows toward Pothole as an exit, I exited there to be sure I could in fact exit. Once it became restricted after one of the floods we removed it as an exit point.

Now I wonder who does anything there as far as maintaining lines.

That's good to know. I greatly appreciate what the NFSA does. I remember passing pothole several times while it was still marked as an exit and it was apparent it was not exitable (is that a word). Maybe I was there during the time before the NFSA had a chance to change it.

 

[PfcAJ]

How is that nonstandard? Who makes the standard? The people in FL? That's my point. The things I point out are what is different about MX than FL. That doesn't make it strokery or unsafe. You're using a Florida-centric mindset. If that's what's common in MX isn't that they're standard?
Regardless of if it's different than what you're used to, your skillset from basic cave should make all of this a nonissue.
If you want to see strokery, take a trip to France. You will see crap you couldn't imagine. Constantly changing lines and markers, 20 different colors and lines all on one line, t's that look like somebody's jump.

The standard for arrows in MX is to point towards the closest exit? Isn't that the same as it is here? Hell, remember when Peacock pointed towards Pothole as an exit eventhough there was no way my fatass could have gotten an arm through it?

Reach gaps, super long jumps, conflicting arrows, and inconsistent marking of guidelines is for sure unsafe.

 

[rddvet]

Now I wonder who does anything there as far as maintaining lines.

The local instructors (typically those who lined the cave) and the QRSS ( Quintana Roo Speleologic Society). They have the same issues as we've had here with people arguing about how caves should be lined as well as people changing this without a concensus by the community as a whole. That happens in every location with caves: FL, MX, France, Spain, Italy