Advice, hose routing for mirrored left and right second stages

[tbone1004]

@Dan_P it's not that the first stage is any more of a problem. With proper gas planning it shouldn't matter. That said, the manifold gives you warm fuzzies when exiting a cave because you know that you aren't just carrying out some amount of gas that isn't accessible.

so if the point of the Z-system is to be able to always donate from the mouth and be scalable, except it only works within the confines of OC, then what is the point?
Most everyone uses LP manifolds in a CCR, especially if they use a BOV, but that is because no one wants to plug in a boatload of hoses to be able to use it properly and I have no issue with that.

Note, I want to like the Z-system, I really do, and I have tried since it was released. I just never seem to be able to find a real justification for when it is actually worth the absolutely insane cost to implement.

For my dives right now.
2x backgas
2x stage
2x deco

I'm in for over $1k to implement a system that doesn't buy me anything more than a theoretical benefit
$370-manifold
$50-2x extra hoses
$200-3x female QC6 with adapters for manifold and extra second stage
$400-6x male QC6 with adapters

 

[victorzamora]

@tbone1004 Again, please if you will, explain to me a scenario where a first stage issue is a real problem on the Z system and not on manifolded backmount?

I don't think this is the right thread to be discussing the Z-manifold....but:

You're in a cave, diving to thirds. At thirds, you start turning around. When you start turning around, one of your first stages goes bad and you suddenly get full HP into your regulator hoses. In backmount doubles, you shut that post down. You still get access to the entire content of both tanks.

 

[tbone1004]

I don't think this is the right thread to be discussing the Z-manifold....but:

You're in a cave, diving to thirds. At thirds, you start turning around. When you start turning around, one of your first stages goes bad and you suddenly get full HP into your regulator hoses. In backmount doubles, you shut that post down. You still get access to the entire content of both tanks.

in z-system, you have to disconnect the QC6 which leaves you with no access to any breathable gas from the second stages until you shut that one tank off and get another tank on. Which takes longer, swapping to a regulator that is within mouth reach, or shutting off one valve and turning on another?

 

[RainPilot]

in z-system, you have to disconnect the QC6 which leaves you with no access to any breathable gas from the second stages until you shut that one tank off and get another tank on. Which takes longer, swapping to a regulator that is within mouth reach, or shutting off one valve and turning on another?

I've addressed that issue by matching the IP on my manifold reg sets. I dive with both tanks on all the time, they breathe down equally. If i have a left side failure, i close the isolation valve and continue on my primary. Right side failure, I switch to secondary. Same as BM doubles, really. Except, if the failure is between the tank valve and the QC6 i.e. a 1st stage failure, once i have shut down the offending tank, I can disconnect the QC6 and re-open the isolator. I now have 2 serviceable second stages on my rig for donation if needs must.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P it's not that the first stage is any more of a problem. With proper gas planning it shouldn't matter. That said, the manifold gives you warm fuzzies when exiting a cave because you know that you aren't just carrying out some amount of gas that isn't accessible.

Well, warm fuzzies are nice, of course. But, as you say, I don't think it's any more of a problem either.

You're in a cave, diving to thirds. At thirds, you start turning around. When you start turning around, one of your first stages goes bad and you suddenly get full HP into your regulator hoses. In backmount doubles, you shut that post down. You still get access to the entire content of both tanks.

You'd still have a third to get home plus half of your rock bottom. You're home safe.

There is no scenario I've been able to perceive so far where I could put myself into trouble with gas logistics because I swapped out my doubles rig for a Z. I have found a few scenarios where the Z system was significantly superior to manifolded backmount, though.

so if the point of the Z-system is to be able to always donate from the mouth and be scalable, except it only works within the confines of OC, then what is the point?

The O/C platform we started diving in Open Water Diver is the bailout platform for the MX configuration. A literal turn of the BOV, and I'm back on Z system. Same way I've been diving it all along - allow me to explain:

On CCR, it's still longhose for donation, but any CCR means there must be an adjustment in donor action. The diver must accept this limitation to CCR, or remain on O/C;
The choice is between adding a "gas extending plugin" to the O/C base; and abandoning the O/C base for a new CCR base with a separate, off-board bailout solution.

Within O/C, it's the only solution scalable to any environment or gas logistics requirement in a consistent fashion.

I don't know if that answers your question. And I don't know if CCR longhose donation is the issue. It is what it is - for what it's worth, I still think it has significant value, and I still think it's fair to say it's scalable and consistent.

Note, I want to like the Z-system, I really do, and I have tried since it was released. I just never seem to be able to find a real justification for when it is actually worth the absolutely insane cost to implement.

For my dives right now.
2x backgas
2x stage
2x deco

I'm in for over $1k to implement a system that doesn't buy me anything more than a theoretical benefit
$370-manifold
$50-2x extra hoses
$200-3x female QC6 with adapters for manifold and extra second stage
$400-6x male QC6 with adapters

I get what you're saying - it's costly, especially if you're swapping over a full package.

There's the option of 1:4 gasplan rather than 1:6 on staged penetrations.
Half the deco time if your buddy loses his deco bottle.
Narrow constrictions will be on the same platform.

 

[MichaelMc]

I don't think this is the right thread to be discussing the Z-manifold....but:

I think the Z-system needs a different thread. I created one Z-system advantages

 

[leadduck]

Often enough, getting through restrictions means pushing and crawling. Sometimes, it's not overly clear what's stuck...so you push on. As for there being less hose: there's still quite a bit of hose, and there's more overall hose in 2x5ft than 30"+7ft. Either way, the point remains that it takes a lot less to lose your reg with hoses straight up than it does to go behind your neck.

Hi Victor, thanks for your detailed explanation. I don't intend to crawl into tight restrictions with 2x5' or 7' or at all. The guys I meant use about 40" hoses or shorter, really straight up from the 1st stage to the mouth.

Swapping tanks in ANY circumstance is a terrible idea, imo. Tight spaces, there literally may not be enough room...this one is obvious. BUT most caves are big enough that physically fitting tanks isn't that big of a deal, but the tank swap technique is still likely to go wrong.

I browsed a bit now and found many threads about this in scubaboard, cave divers' forum and sidemount forums. Seems like many share your concerns about swapping tanks, particularly steel, while some get trained with it, use only Aluminum tanks and like the idea of swapping tanks better than swimming with a long hose. Seems to be a regional preference, more popular in Europe but not in Florida. The UTD sidemount manifold in contrast seems to be more a US thing with few if any practitioners in Europe. Regarding hose lengths, I read many comments, even by GUE instructors, who use 7' hoses only when diving with backmount buddys but convert their setup to two short hoses as soon as they dive in a pure sidemount team.

 

[Squid88]

Wow as fascinating as all this is. People seem to be way off topic.

Is their anymore insight on hose routing solutions for left right second stages?

I'm a bit bewildered that; Scubapro, Hollis, Diverite, Hog, Deep six, Apex etc. etc.
all make left right regulator sets but they are apparently impractical to use.

Diverite Nomad XT left / right Second stages were said to have been a key to making sidemount really comfortable with hose routing. Yet does not appear to be any follow up. There's sets offered in left right pre-made sidemount sets by many of the sidemount prominent manufacturers. So why bother if there's no suitable way to use them?

I reckon there's more to it and I'd like to know. Is there a way to run the hoses straight up and have a way of taking the weight of the hose and securing it in case of a snag without going behind the neck? (I can already think of a way but I'd like to hear what others are doing).

Obviosely there's a market for the left right prebuilt sidemount sets; so people are buying and using them specifically for sidemount. I'd just like to know how they are routing and setting up the hoses.

 

[MichaelMc]

Left/right regs also come from technical, non side mount usage, for stages. That need predates the side mount surge. Some with the side mount sets may highlight left/right regs because they are the ones with L/R, such as Apeks.

The understanding of a need for L/R in side mount seems to have evolved. In old stuff I have read, it was more of a concern, what I read now is that it is not. That both R regs and both over the neck as tbone has been saying is better. If you make L/R regs, for tech, anyway, and want to sell to side mount, and make a kit for them, you might just highlight the L/R nature of what you have. As some think its needed, and you can still use them as Rs anyway...

I'm moving to side. All this is from reading here for a year or more. And how companies and markets work.

 

[leadduck]

Wow as fascinating as all this is. People seem to be way off topic.

Is their anymore insight on hose routing solutions for left right second stages?

I'm a bit bewildered that; Scubapro, Hollis, Diverite, Hog, Deep six, Apex etc. etc.
all make left right regulator sets but they are apparently impractical to use.

Here's a video of Lamar Hires showing his setup. Looks like a 5' hose loop at the left tank with a left regulator going straight to the mouth:
Here's a video of no-mount diving in Florida: At about 6:50 you see the left regulator on a short hose.

This one: at 0:45, lefty and right reg on short hoses behind the neck.